Is Snake Eyes overused???

[lehsreh]

Gonna upset a lot of people here. but I think Snake Eyes is way overused and over rated. In my opinion, (which i am allowed) it was the overuse of Snake Eyes and the Ninja Force that brought about the end of the Marvel G.I. Joe series. sorry guys, I was a big fan, but I really do believe he has had overkill. A lot of the spotlight could have been used to introduce other characters. Am I the only one who has ever thought this?

[Self-Modifier]

I think a lot of people agree with you. I'd almost say a majority of the fandom agrees. Personally, I like Snake-Eyes. I have no problem with him being a ninja as well as a commando. However, I don't think he's the greatest warrior on the face of the Earth, and I do think he was way overexposed near the end of the Marvel run. I think he's probably the best commando on the Joe team, but Storm Shadow is a better ninja.

[ender098]

Yeah, you're right. In the comics he's way overused. But it's the same with Duke and Flint in the cartoon. And with DD, I think they beat the horse dead with Beachhead! I really think they need to dig into some of the other characters. Lowlight has always fascinated me. His original story was he was an abused kid who was afraid of the dark and daddy punished him by leaving him in the woods at night with only a rifle,...or something to that effect. I liked MainFrame, too! Too bad DD killed him off. We hardly know anything about Grand Slam either! What about Airtight? I'd like to see his "behind the scenes" life. There are so many characters they could develop if they layed off Snake eyes.

on another note, I'd like to see more with Wraith!

[Outrider]

You certainly are entitled to express your opinion, and I agree with you one hundred percent. I was as hardcore a Joe fan as could be back then, but even I got sick of the whole Snake Eyes/Storm Shadow ninja rubbish towards the end of the Marvel run. I also agree that it probably hastened the demise GI Joe, along with the fact that Hasbro killed the toy line because no one was buying the unadalterated crap they were churning out by the early/mid nineties. Snake Eyes certainly has purpose in my Joeverse, but he ain't no ninja.

[ender098]

[QUOTE=Outrider]You certainly are entitled to express your opinion, and I agree with you one hundred percent. I was as hardcore a Joe fan as could be back then, but even I got sick of the whole Snake Eyes/Storm Shadow ninja rubbish towards the end of the Marvel run. I also agree that it probably hastened the demise GI Joe, along with the fact that Hasbro killed the toy line because no one was buying the unadalterated crap they were churning out by the early/mid nineties. Snake Eyes certainly has purpose in my Joeverse, but he ain't no ninja.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, the superhuman ninja crap got old real quick....and the whole "Firefly...was he or wasn't he a ninja" thing...BLAH! And then the "let's jump on EVERY bandwagon to get our piece of the pie" thing! (You know....Mega Marines= Aliens, Eco Warriors = Capt Planet, DEF = COPS, dino hunters = Jurrassic Park) God, I'm suprised they didn't have a new purple, red, yellow and blue GI joes to to try capitalize on Teletubbies!

for me, the Marvel stuff ended with issue 115......after that it was all downhill!

[lehsreh]

mmm, it's nice to know im not the only one who saw things this way. The only reason I thoght of this at all was that I recently read the whole marvel series comics again. I noticed at the end how every issue was about Sneak Eyes assutling all of Cobra by himself and winning. It made it seem like there was no need for a team, just let him attact by himself and kill everyone. I agree with the overuse of Duke and Flint in the cartoon too, Snake Eyes wasnt as used in them as the comics. Myself i would have loved to have had more Quick Kick, or sci-Fi or dusty.

[Sonneilon]

Actually, the end of GI Joe the comic and the floundering toyline both suffered from the politics of the time. Take this topic to the JBL and hear a more in-depth answer.

I stopped w/ Joe after the Cobra War and when DiC started. The whole ninja thing, I had no idea. I thought it was cool thru the 1st 80 issues but when I heard that SE's parents were killed by CC's brother and all that... I just rolled my eyes. It sounded pretty dumb, imo. Ender brings up a great point about Beach Head. DD's been pushing him incredibly hard and it doesn't do anything for me. It's also probably why I ne'er cared much for Duke and Flint cuz the cartoon always shoved in our faces.

But in a way, maybe that's a good thing? Look at the S6 cartoon. Which characters are they utterly destroying? I won't mention Tunnel Rat cuz they've utterly goofed on him, but Heavy Duty? Sure, let them destroy Heavy Duty, nobody would care. But if they goofed Roadblock, the old folks would crap bricks! So what I'm saying, if your fave chars were pushed by Marvel and DD and treated the same way? Let SE and Scar, Duke and Flint be the scapegoats while OTHERs can be loved by us in our own way.

I'd be pretty bummed if DD had taken duders like Repeater and Muskrat and messed 'em all up. And I bet if they took Outrider's faves and messed up his 'hard' military guys, he'd be pretty bugged too. Let the ninja be ninja or whatever Hasbro thinks they are. It doesn't mean YOU have to treat them that way. Now where's that geek icon again?

[NemesisEnforcerFan]

[FONT=Century Gothic][COLOR=Indigo]I have to agree, I don't think it would make sense to completely kill off the use of SE or SS just because Hasbro have. In one of my recent anims or dios I was asked why I dont use Snake Eyes for them?
I'm constantly using duller or lesser characters according to my feedback.. which surprised me at first but then I understood. I really only wanted to give a much open view to the other characters I felt had been shadowed out by Snake Eyes popularity.. it wont stop me from using Snake Eyes.. I just prefer to see him as the very first version the military commando called in when things get pretty nauseous.
Snake Eyes is a popular character but I do feel him & storm shadow have been overused.[/COLOR][/FONT]

[Sonneilon]

You guys gotta understand the use of 'em goes into toy politics. The concept of CORE came about and while it wasn't exactly around in the 90s, it sure was when GI Joe relaunched. Take a look at TF and see which characters are made over and over again. I'm not much of a TF fan but man, where I come from, Starscream got blown away by Galvatron and yet, he keeps on coming back in jet form???

In a way, the use of the ninja have different reasons depending on comic or toy. Toy-wise, it's all about the core now. As for the marvel comic, that's the story Hama wanted to tell and he freely admits it. As for DD dealing with it all, all I can say is that they don't know what else to do.

[Outrider]

[QUOTE=Sonneilon]Actually, the end of GI Joe the comic and the floundering toyline both suffered from the politics of the time. Take this topic to the JBL and hear a more in-depth answer.

I stopped w/ Joe after the Cobra War and when DiC started. The whole ninja thing, I had no idea. I thought it was cool thru the 1st 80 issues but when I heard that SE's parents were killed by CC's brother and all that... I just rolled my eyes. It sounded pretty dumb, imo. Ender brings up a great point about Beach Head. DD's been pushing him incredibly hard and it doesn't do anything for me. It's also probably why I ne'er cared much for Duke and Flint cuz the cartoon always shoved in our faces.

But in a way, maybe that's a good thing? Look at the S6 cartoon. Which characters are they utterly destroying? I won't mention Tunnel Rat cuz they've utterly goofed on him, but Heavy Duty? Sure, let them destroy Heavy Duty, nobody would care. But if they goofed Roadblock, the old folks would crap bricks! So what I'm saying, if your fave chars were pushed by Marvel and DD and treated the same way? Let SE and Scar, Duke and Flint be the scapegoats while OTHERs can be loved by us in our own way.

I'd be pretty bummed if DD had taken duders like Repeater and Muskrat and messed 'em all up. And I bet if they took Outrider's faves and messed up his 'hard' military guys, he'd be pretty bugged too. Let the ninja be ninja or whatever Hasbro thinks they are. It doesn't mean YOU have to treat them that way. Now where's that geek icon again?[/QUOTE]

You've made some great points there, G. It's not just about Snake Eyes, but any character that was overused. There were times during the Marvel run when I got sick of seeing Stalker, or Roadblock, or Destro because they were used so much. I always wanted to see varied team members get some page time; there were some great characters that never saw the light of day in the entire run.
You also made a good point about just because SE was portrayed as a ninja in the comics, doesn't mean he has to be one in anyone else's Joeverse. For me, SE is a highly trained commando. Every single figure you own is what you want it to be. There were multiple characters killed off by Larry Hama, but they are still kicking in my Joeverse. No one should feel restrained by what happened in the comics or on the cartoons if they don't like the storylines or how certain characters were portrayed.

[ender098]

I don't hate SE for being a Ninja, or even his ninja ties. I know guys who have trained in Ninjitsu, it's just that it seems they overdo it in this aspect! It permeats everything in his pesonality. His original filecard said he was proficient in 12 unarmed fighting systems. What about those? How come we don't see former Tae Kwon Do or Judo competitors that Scarlett has kicked ass on coming back to kill her? I hate the fact that "EVERYTHING" about SE leads back to the ninja stuff. And they go with the ancient ninja stuff! In my JoeVerse SE is a ninja, but more along the lines of Stephen K. Hayes. Trained in Tradition, but uses modern weapons and tactics. (ie; he'll thow a grenade BEFORE a throwing star!)

I'm just curious, how many people on this site have looked up ninjitsu? They were simple Guerilla warriors, assisins and spies. A lot of the junk Hollywood associates with them is just that..."junk". Just like the Samurai. the Samurai used Muskets when they got them! It wasn't like a Samurai would pass up a better weapon just because of tradition! Modern ninja don't wear black suits and carry shuriken. They wear t-shirt and jeans and know how to kill you with a pen or letter opener if tey can't get near you with a gun.

and yeah, I hate snake eyes being the "angel of Death" that kills everyone and everything in his path so easily! But there is a matter of truth to that! Doc Holiday went to a doctor and was told he had Tuberculosis; Because of this, when he gunfought, he was hoping to get killed so he didn't have to die slowly and agonizing. His calm acceptance of death made his hands steadier than his opponents, and a relaxed draw is faster than a tense, nervous draw. I believe SE wants to die. He feels he has nothing to live for and when he goes against enemies, he's hoping they will kill him, so he's more relaxed and it works to his advantage. In my joeverse, he only worries about death when he thinks he may die and not be able to save his teammates on missions.

nuff said!

[Self-Modifier]

[QUOTE=ender098]I believe SE wants to die. He feels he has nothing to live for and when he goes against enemies, he's hoping they will kill him, so he's more relaxed and it works to his advantage. In my joeverse, he only worries about death when he thinks he may die and not be able to save his teammates on missions. [/QUOTE]

That's a really cool take on the character!

[lehsreh]

that is also a samurai proverb, thos who seek death seldom find it. i have a 3rd brown belt in kung-fu and a blue in karate and have been fighting in MMA fights for a year now. i respect all forms of martial arts in one way or another, but no man, even if he was a grandmaster in every form of martial arts in the world could kill an army. thats what i ment when i started this. not that i dislike snake eyes himself, just the way they let him kill everyone in his path, only god could outdo him

[Sonneilon]

Dude, didn't you ever play Dynasty Warriors? Those guys are based off historical characters and THOSE guys could decimate whole armies by themselves! ;)

[silencer]

Ender: Modern ninja don't wear black suits and carry shuriken. They wear t-shirt and jeans and know how to kill you with a pen or letter opener if they can't get near you with a gun.

:)

Let's face it, whatever Snake- eyes is conceived to be, a near-superhuman death-tempting bad ass or just a regular joe, he sure as hell could give Quick kick a whipping. Assuming he was still alive to receive one ;)

lol

[lehsreh]

silencer said
"Let's face it, whatever Snake- eyes is conceived to be, a near-superhuman death-tempting bad ass or just a regular joe, he sure as hell could give Quick kick a whipping. Assuming he was still alive to receive one
lol"


sorry, not really thoguh. as far as martial arts goes ninjitsu is for backstabbing. ina face to face fight, it wouldnt last long. dont get me wrong though, i always loved ninjas, even before the turtles.

[snakeeater]

I definitely think Snake Eyes is overused. Case in point, the Devils Due Special Missions issues were supposed to focus on underused Joes, but who shows up in the Antarctica issue?

It kind of says something about a character if the only new thing you can do with him is kill him and resurrect him with ninja magic. There are so many other characters I'd like to see explored.

He used to be one of my favorite characters, but the overuse (and overpower) kind of made me sick of him. IF I use him in my dios, he'd be a lot more down to earth.

[Sonneilon]

[QUOTE=snakeeater]
It kind of says something about a character if the only new thing you can do with him is kill him and resurrect him with ninja magic. There are so many other characters I'd like to see explored.

He used to be one of my favorite characters, but the overuse (and overpower) kind of made me sick of him. [/QUOTE]

I agree with that. That's why SE is done differently in my dios.

[Lava Boss]

Anytime one character becomes more popular than his team, there's a problem with overusage. Be it Wolverine or Snake-Eyes. I think the absurdity really crept in the comic when Snake-Eyes could kill Cobra Commander easily and did not. That and tying every major villain into Snake Eyes' past, even it meant ruining a character (Firefly) for no good reason.

[Sonneilon]

I found the whole "SE is the center of the Joeverse" really weird. What happened to just doing stories with varied characters? Certainly, those of us who had the toys at our disposal were always looking for them to show up in teh cartoon and comic. And how much time did my faves get? Hardly any. lol

[Self-Modifier]

[QUOTE=Lava Boss]Anytime one character becomes more popular than his team, there's a problem with overusage. Be it Wolverine or Snake-Eyes. I think the absurdity really crept in the comic when Snake-Eyes could kill Cobra Commander easily and did not. That and tying every major villain into Snake Eyes' past, even it meant ruining a character (Firefly) for no good reason.[/QUOTE]

I can't figure out why people think tying Firefly into Snake-Eyes's past "ruined" him. I agree that it was unnecessary to make him part ninja, but he was still the same character as evidenced by his speech and actions. And really, except for that goofy scorpion maneuver, how often did you see him do any ninja stuff?

I personally like the fact that the histories of Snake-Eyes, Cobra Commander, the Baroness, Destro, Zartan, Storm Shadow, and Firefly are intertwined. Sure it's a huge coincidence, but that doesn't stop me from thinking it's cool and that it adds a lot to the historical tapestry of the G.I. Joe universe.

To each their own, I suppose.

[Lava Boss]

[QUOTE=Self-Modifier]I can't figure out why people think tying Firefly into Snake-Eyes's past "ruined" him. I agree that it was unnecessary to make him part ninja, but he was still the same character as evidenced by his speech and actions. And really, except for that goofy scorpion maneuver, how often did you see him do any ninja stuff?

I personally like the fact that the histories of Snake-Eyes, Cobra Commander, the Baroness, Destro, Zartan, Storm Shadow, and Firefly are intertwined. Sure it's a huge coincidence, but that doesn't stop me from thinking it's cool and that it adds a lot to the historical tapestry of the G.I. Joe universe.

To each their own, I suppose.[/QUOTE]

Turning Firefly into a megalomaniac who talks too much (including revealling his entire origin to enemies for no great reason), has an army of robots and engages ninjas in absurd cheerleader formations didn't ruin him?

C.C., Storm Shadow and Zartan I could handle. Once it got to the Baroness (and Hama fudged again by having her losing her evil nature) and Destro...that was too much. And that's the villains, add Hawk and Stalker to that, too. Too much soap opera...

Anyway, Hasbro's decided it do whatever it wants with the characters rather than maintaining old comic history. So it's almost a moot point.

[Self-Modifier]

[QUOTE=Lava Boss]Turning Firefly into a megalomaniac who talks too much (including revealling his entire origin to enemies for no great reason), has an army of robots and engages ninjas in absurd cheerleader formations didn't ruin him?

C.C., Storm Shadow and Zartan I could handle. Once it got to the Baroness (and Hama fudged again by having her losing her evil nature) and Destro...that was too much. And that's the villains, add Hawk and Stalker to that, too. Too much soap opera...[/QUOTE]

Ah, I see where our opinions differ then. I like the soap opera.

Also, the school of villainy I come from is all about talking too much ("monologuing" as The Incredibles called it). And I still maintain that he was the same person he'd always been. When he boasts about how he found a way out of the freighter, but chose not to share it, thus condemning all his fellows to a slow death-- That strikes me as vintage Firefly. Oh, and he always had a penchant for talking too much. Recall issue 28 (or thereabouts), when he's wandering through the swamp after being dumped by Cobra Commander. He's talking to himself in that scene!

I'm not saying all these changes were good. I didn't like the Baroness as a good guy either, but I could buy it in Destro and Zartan. I didn't like Firefly's green costume, and as I've said, his ninjafication was unnecessary. But, I really don't think any of that ruined the characters. They just went off in unexpected directions.

And I did call the scorpion maneuver "goofy". I'm with you on that.

[NemesisEnforcerFan]

[FONT=Century Gothic][COLOR=Indigo]I have to add, Snake Eyes, Storm Shadow and Firefly's identities should remain anonymous.. it for me remains to be one of the biggest killers in a character.. primarily as that air of curiosity and unknown past I think is the strength of the character.. once a character is unmasked it just ruins his aura.. I look back at all the wrestlers that have had masks.. and they too have been ruined most recently and noteably kane is a prime example.

I have to agree that if parts of fireflys past are to be revealed fair enough.. but his full name, place of birth etc and full face shot should never be shown.. same for snake eyes and storm shadow..

Snake Eyes is cool.. in my Joe verse he's never going to be unmasked and will remain cool because I dont use him in every story. With anything that gets overused it will become long drawn out and boring.. I have heard lots of people that got tired of hearing about the soap opera side and how when the joes were down they constantly had snake eyes defeat everyone.. :rolleyes:

Kind of silly really because I always thought in the military the big thing was Team Work.. yet in the later issues it sure sounds like GIJOE go against this and just have Super Hero Snake Eyes defeat everyone.[/COLOR][/FONT]

[nando]

yeah thats right theres a lot of characters like recoil , rock n roll , dodger , salvo , they can play a role in the comics too , i like snake eyes but come on he is not a super human right , do u like spy troops the movie , guess who save the day at the end of the movie , ur favorite ninja again lol...

[Slow_Burn]

I don't think he's overused, as much as he is often used badly.

When he's written well, he's a genuinely interesting character. But when you turn him into some uberninja with the strength of ten men, he turns south really fast.

[Southzen]

I like SE. But I do see where SE is over used and giving him super human abilities does take away the "humans make mistakes" about him.