Man to man, and admin to admin. This conversation needs to be had and it needs to be seen. My intent is merely in the spirit of heartfelt honesty and I present my thoughts, and the thoughts of others, both with us and not, from a perspective of (what some will call "questionable") integrity. We don’t know one another on a first name basis so I’m going to stick w/ "Hammer". You may call me Xander, if you like.



Hammer, I'm going to level with you here.
I think you're cool people, and many others that I associate myself with do as well. This site is in essence ingenious and the only one of it's kind at no mistake. But there's dissention in your ranks. There has been for a while now. But ever since Craig and others started going to Flickr it's been brewing over. We're known as the "Flickr gang" now and god knows what else we're referred to on MSN chat. Our migration had nothing to do with JDs outside of the fact that we no longer had to deal with the Elite.

The Elite. Or so they would like to think. There are a handful of members here who have apparently been here since the site started and they act as though that gives them some due sense of entitlement. They only rate pics and rarely comment much less post their own. But the second one of them does post a pic they all flock to it though like it's the best shot ever. Truth be told, any of the "Flick gang" could go toe-toe with said elite any day of the week.

You see years ago, while these elitists were hiding behind their instant messages and their inboxes trying to pass their “final word” on the pics, WE became each other’s support. Guys like Outrider, Scarrviper, Flatline, Roland_Thompson_Gunner, Dreadnok Dread, (to name a few, very few) became the main posters and were always trying to help each other out compared to the others sitting in rowboats shooting spitballs at the battleships taking over. We didn’t all start out good, hell, my earliest shots were crap! But we didn’t condemn each other for it. Instead we coached our new found friends and cheered on each new shot pushing ourselves to do better. As a result a brotherhood was formed and, yes, it stands today. True story.

Where the animosity or jealousy toward us stems from I cannot say, whether it’s one generation hating the next I don’t really know. But it’s there and has been for years. Now that quite a few people have moved to Flickr and only seldom post on JDs the animosity from the elitists has grown stronger. We exist without their self-fulfilling sense of approval, we’ve angered the gods and inadvertently at that. A line has been drawn but we didn’t draw it.

Hammer, you’re a Flickr user, hell you’re a member of Outrider’s O-Ring group, you know it’s ultimately aimed and based around the art and enjoyment of photography. That’s why we’re there. We aren’t anti-JDs. Oh, it’ll look like that from afar, and yes some people are fed up with certain members here, but ultimately this is where we all started out and hold no real issues with the spirit and concept of this site.
Right now for us Flickr’s the kind of place this spot has all the potential to be, an artist colony full of friends sharing a common hobby. Instead JoeDios gets riddled by internet politics and wielded like a weapon against those who would really just like to get on with the fun. Sad, but again true.

I expect full on that these elitists will standup and deny any and all accusations and truths brought on by this post and when they do, you, Hammer, will know good and well who they are (should they have the stomach to expose themselves). But I don’t stand alone and I speak for the dozens who have stood together over the years.

Should you like to continue this we can do so via PM, or you can visit the O-Ring and see that it’s all about the fun and the hobby. Certainly not about choosing sides or declaring war on one another.

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This pretty much touches on what I just said in my other post PA. I happen to think Nate is trying to do the right thing as well. He's got a stonker (great) site and its full of potential, always has been.

I didnt want to bring Outrider into it. But he told me himself that the place became all about personality politics and i know i had lengthy chats with Outrider via FM before he passed away about his time spent there.

Me and Outrider had more in common that just the gijoes. We'd talk about alot of things. If you go back far enough i actually didnt get off on the best foot with Craig at all. But I realised what a great inspiration he was.

Sadly there are veteran members here, for whatever reason that escapes me have some kind of personal agenda, and for a while now they've utilised their veteran status and abused it in a cruel way. If you need to speak to me personally, i am in the UK but up late and i'm on MSN messaging you right now.

I do hope that Joe Dios gets past this turmoil and I meant every word I said in my previous post on the 'bannings' thread.

I am one of the many veterans of this site that happens to be in agreement with PA about this whole issue.

Regards
NEF

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"I can glide silently and land without a sound, I am the eerie presence in the pitch black room"

Well, you both stated your case quite eloquently. I especially liked the "rowboats shooting spitballs at the battleships" metaphor.

I have to admit, I didn't know, or care to know about the 2 "cliques" forming up. I hate cliques, and I was counting on mature artists transcending cliques for the sake of the art.

In high school and college, I wasn't a member of just one clique, I was in several of them, and learned my love of diplomacy by bridging those divides.

In addition to cliques, I also hate elitists. And thugs. And anyone else who takes enjoyment out of picking on other people, whether it's griping about an inconsequential violation of a minor rule, or drawing grotesquely obscene caricatures of members you don't like and posting them to Flickr. NemesisEnforcerFan, I'd like to hear what you have to say about this, as I haven't witnessed this cruelty myself. I don't doubt you at all, I just don't have a lot of time to police JD and may not be picking up on that stuff.

Prince Adam, your description of the creative collaboration amongst talented artists is why I made this site. That and to archive great work for the ages. Before JoeDios, the most popular place to post dios was in a sub-forum of JoeCustoms, and those were pruned after 30 days of inactivity. SO MUCH great art was lost! That spurred me to make a home for people like you and me.

I don't know the 2 groups as well as you do, but I am reading your point loud and clear. As for why the animosity began, it may be cultural or generational. I know swearing and flaming in threads really pushes some people's buttons, (especially parents whose kids participate in Joes and read the site) while it doesn't bother others. This loose language also turned away quite a number of former and incoming members ( I have many PM's to that effect). It sounded more like a locker room than a community. So that certainly has to stop, as it is giving JD a bad name in the greater Joe community. I also know being nit-picky about the rules and calling people out for something minor (posting 4 pics in a row instead of 3 since you're using a dial-up connection from Iraq or something) turns people off, too! Many creative people are sensitive types, and thrive in friendlier environments. And less strict environments. I'm not a strict Admin.

What I really want is what Prince Adam described so well, I'll just quote him:


My goal now, and I need your help on this, is to combine the "MSN Group" and the "Flickr group", "Veterans", "Elitists" and those who have no care for any of this political baloney and make one group: JoeDios members.

How can you help? Post more images, dios and threads! Be constructive with your criticism! Don't be an elitist jerk. If there's a policy violation you HAVE to get off your chest, don't play forum cop on your own, PM me about it and I'll deal with it if it warrants it. Keep the sailor talk off the site. My 8 year old son is reading it now, as are the kids of many other members (exceptions for text inside Dios that are off-site. Shipwreck has a mouth like a sailor, I hear ).

But above all else, BE CREATIVE and celebrate each others' creativity!

I am also very open to other ways we can stop being "this group" or "that group" and be JoeDios artists again.

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Read Hammerfel's Dio Story, "Disciple" here

• My Want List - Help me complete my Dios!

BTW, I'm on Skype, too, if you guys want to talk. I'm a slow typist! PM me for my handle.

So, DD, you're saying you get your head bitten off when you post constructive criticism here on JD?

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Read Hammerfel's Dio Story, "Disciple" here

• My Want List - Help me complete my Dios!

Well, I have tryed to better myself after outriders death, I have asked myself what did i love about craig and it was the way he taught us things! the way he could crit your stuff and you would understand what he was saying, ive been trying to do that with people, around here and flickr, some take it good and use it others either give me a nice attitude or dont even reflect on it! So I try and if i get no response i move onto the next couple of shots thats all! people used to take criticism better here is all!

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"All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth. "
Friedrich Nietzsche

That doesn't sound like you're getting your head bitten off here. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you...

Outrider had a GREAT "Art Director" style touch. he could help you with tips and you never felt "preached to".

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Read Hammerfel's Dio Story, "Disciple" here

• My Want List - Help me complete my Dios!

I can do this.....I think

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MY FLICKR PAGE......

The "not being a jerk" part is the tough one

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Exactly that's all I know how to be!!!

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MY FLICKR PAGE......

Its the truth! When I found this site, I was shown it by prudence, I was on JBL and thought there was a clique over there! I believe i spelled that right! she told me there were great people here! she was right! I just wanted to learn and grow with my dios and stories! I came over here and got bashed in a good way though! I remember FF would tell me i need to crop my shots more it was annoying but the truth, guilt would show me and tell me about angles and cropping as well, vader,craig,flats they all helped me showed me how to make trees and get foilage! everyone helped me! craigs showed me how accessories could bring out the dullest scenes! it was a great site with people posting 1 or 2 pics that were awesome and different not with the same light and same scene twenty times over! I want to know what happened! All the said banned people all get along on flickr! were a group of friends that can take sh%^ and dish it to! thats how people get better! I can't critique someone lights or photoshop without getting my head bitten off now! Pa is 100% right! this sites awesome, but people have to step back and realize who the lambs are and why there being led to the slaughter! Peace DD p.s. thanks for fixing the sizing issue!

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"All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth. "
Friedrich Nietzsche