this was a terrible thread, but shows that we all should evaluate how we comment. this was one time when jay's response wasn't caustic, just honest. i told him to jump down a mineshaft on flickr and i regret that. ALL OF US should resist knee jerk responses on Joedios. a considered response will eliminate hostility and hostility negates anything constructive. there are so many different POV's here on Joedios and there is room for all of them. if Trench-Viper, who is consistently courteous and helpful, was upset, i think there is a problem because he is the epitome of Joedios. i apologize to Jay for my hostility towards him and Death at Midnight for continuing the thread ( but i'm a liberal and we do sh*t like this )...and knowing is half the battle