Hammerfel.... Let's do this
 

Man to man, and admin to admin. This conversation needs to be had and it needs to be seen. My intent is merely in the spirit of heartfelt honesty and I present my thoughts, and the thoughts of others, both with us and not, from a perspective of (what some will call "questionable") integrity. We don’t know one another on a first name basis so I’m going to stick w/ "Hammer". You may call me Xander, if you like.



Hammer, I'm going to level with you here.
I think you're cool people, and many others that I associate myself with do as well. This site is in essence ingenious and the only one of it's kind at no mistake. But there's dissention in your ranks. There has been for a while now. But ever since Craig and others started going to Flickr it's been brewing over. We're known as the "Flickr gang" now and god knows what else we're referred to on MSN chat. Our migration had nothing to do with JDs outside of the fact that we no longer had to deal with the Elite.

The Elite. Or so they would like to think. There are a handful of members here who have apparently been here since the site started and they act as though that gives them some due sense of entitlement. They only rate pics and rarely comment much less post their own. But the second one of them does post a pic they all flock to it though like it's the best shot ever. Truth be told, any of the "Flick gang" could go toe-toe with said elite any day of the week.

You see years ago, while these elitists were hiding behind their instant messages and their inboxes trying to pass their “final word” on the pics, WE became each other’s support. Guys like Outrider, Scarrviper, Flatline, Roland_Thompson_Gunner, Dreadnok Dread, (to name a few, very few) became the main posters and were always trying to help each other out compared to the others sitting in rowboats shooting spitballs at the battleships taking over. We didn’t all start out good, hell, my earliest shots were crap! But we didn’t condemn each other for it. Instead we coached our new found friends and cheered on each new shot pushing ourselves to do better. As a result a brotherhood was formed and, yes, it stands today. True story.

Where the animosity or jealousy toward us stems from I cannot say, whether it’s one generation hating the next I don’t really know. But it’s there and has been for years. Now that quite a few people have moved to Flickr and only seldom post on JDs the animosity from the elitists has grown stronger. We exist without their self-fulfilling sense of approval, we’ve angered the gods and inadvertently at that. A line has been drawn but we didn’t draw it.

Hammer, you’re a Flickr user, hell you’re a member of Outrider’s O-Ring group, you know it’s ultimately aimed and based around the art and enjoyment of photography. That’s why we’re there. We aren’t anti-JDs. Oh, it’ll look like that from afar, and yes some people are fed up with certain members here, but ultimately this is where we all started out and hold no real issues with the spirit and concept of this site.
Right now for us Flickr’s the kind of place this spot has all the potential to be, an artist colony full of friends sharing a common hobby. Instead JoeDios gets riddled by internet politics and wielded like a weapon against those who would really just like to get on with the fun. Sad, but again true.

I expect full on that these elitists will standup and deny any and all accusations and truths brought on by this post and when they do, you, Hammer, will know good and well who they are (should they have the stomach to expose themselves). But I don’t stand alone and I speak for the dozens who have stood together over the years.

Should you like to continue this we can do so via PM, or you can visit the O-Ring and see that it’s all about the fun and the hobby. Certainly not about choosing sides or declaring war on one another.

This.
 

This pretty much touches on what I just said in my other post PA. I happen to think Nate is trying to do the right thing as well. He's got a stonker (great) site and its full of potential, always has been.

I didnt want to bring Outrider into it. But he told me himself that the place became all about personality politics and i know i had lengthy chats with Outrider via FM before he passed away about his time spent there.

Me and Outrider had more in common that just the gijoes. We'd talk about alot of things. If you go back far enough i actually didnt get off on the best foot with Craig at all. But I realised what a great inspiration he was.

Sadly there are veteran members here, for whatever reason that escapes me have some kind of personal agenda, and for a while now they've utilised their veteran status and abused it in a cruel way. If you need to speak to me personally, i am in the UK but up late and i'm on MSN messaging you right now.

I do hope that Joe Dios gets past this turmoil and I meant every word I said in my previous post on the 'bannings' thread.

I am one of the many veterans of this site that happens to be in agreement with PA about this whole issue.

Regards
NEF

Well, you both stated your case quite eloquently. I especially liked the "rowboats shooting spitballs at the battleships" metaphor.

I have to admit, I didn't know, or care to know about the 2 "cliques" forming up. I hate cliques, and I was counting on mature artists transcending cliques for the sake of the art.

In high school and college, I wasn't a member of just one clique, I was in several of them, and learned my love of diplomacy by bridging those divides.

In addition to cliques, I also hate elitists. And thugs. And anyone else who takes enjoyment out of picking on other people, whether it's griping about an inconsequential violation of a minor rule, or drawing grotesquely obscene caricatures of members you don't like and posting them to Flickr. NemesisEnforcerFan, I'd like to hear what you have to say about this, as I haven't witnessed this cruelty myself. I don't doubt you at all, I just don't have a lot of time to police JD and may not be picking up on that stuff.

Prince Adam, your description of the creative collaboration amongst talented artists is why I made this site. That and to archive great work for the ages. Before JoeDios, the most popular place to post dios was in a sub-forum of JoeCustoms, and those were pruned after 30 days of inactivity. SO MUCH great art was lost! That spurred me to make a home for people like you and me.

I don't know the 2 groups as well as you do, but I am reading your point loud and clear. As for why the animosity began, it may be cultural or generational. I know swearing and flaming in threads really pushes some people's buttons, (especially parents whose kids participate in Joes and read the site) while it doesn't bother others. This loose language also turned away quite a number of former and incoming members ( I have many PM's to that effect). It sounded more like a locker room than a community. So that certainly has to stop, as it is giving JD a bad name in the greater Joe community. I also know being nit-picky about the rules and calling people out for something minor (posting 4 pics in a row instead of 3 since you're using a dial-up connection from Iraq or something) turns people off, too! Many creative people are sensitive types, and thrive in friendlier environments. And less strict environments. I'm not a strict Admin.

What I really want is what Prince Adam described so well, I'll just quote him:


My goal now, and I need your help on this, is to combine the "MSN Group" and the "Flickr group", "Veterans", "Elitists" and those who have no care for any of this political baloney and make one group: JoeDios members.

How can you help? Post more images, dios and threads! Be constructive with your criticism! Don't be an elitist jerk. If there's a policy violation you HAVE to get off your chest, don't play forum cop on your own, PM me about it and I'll deal with it if it warrants it. Keep the sailor talk off the site. My 8 year old son is reading it now, as are the kids of many other members (exceptions for text inside Dios that are off-site. Shipwreck has a mouth like a sailor, I hear :) ).

But above all else, BE CREATIVE and celebrate each others' creativity!

I am also very open to other ways we can stop being "this group" or "that group" and be JoeDios artists again.

Its the truth! When I found this site, I was shown it by prudence, I was on JBL and thought there was a clique over there! I believe i spelled that right! she told me there were great people here! she was right! I just wanted to learn and grow with my dios and stories! I came over here and got bashed in a good way though! I remember FF would tell me i need to crop my shots more it was annoying but the truth, guilt would show me and tell me about angles and cropping as well, vader,craig,flats they all helped me showed me how to make trees and get foilage! everyone helped me! craigs showed me how accessories could bring out the dullest scenes! it was a great site with people posting 1 or 2 pics that were awesome and different not with the same light and same scene twenty times over! I want to know what happened! All the said banned people all get along on flickr! were a group of friends that can take sh%^ and dish it to! thats how people get better! I can't critique someone lights or photoshop without getting my head bitten off now! Pa is 100% right! this sites awesome, but people have to step back and realize who the lambs are and why there being led to the slaughter! Peace DD p.s. thanks for fixing the sizing issue!

BTW, I'm on Skype, too, if you guys want to talk. I'm a slow typist! :) PM me for my handle.

So, DD, you're saying you get your head bitten off when you post constructive criticism here on JD?

I've kept pretty quiet over the last few weeks, and had just decided to start posting photos again and have FUN with this site. I'm going to keep doing just that, what ever else has happened, it is over and done with. I'm not holding grudges or keeping a "flame" of hate light, so to speak. I'm here to play with my friends, ALL of you, in the one place where people get me. I'm here to take photos of a collection I should have given up when I hit my late teens but am more passionate about now than ever.

When I wasn't posting alot, I still kept an eye on the site. It's like the old saying goes "Once A Marine, Always A Marine". I will ALWAYS be a member of Joedios.com. I'm going to do my best to make sure everything I do here is FUN, not just for me but for YOU guys too.

I've made alot of friends, and every year that list gets bigger and bigger, and I hope it just keeps growing.

Anyone, and I mean ANYONE, feel free to PM me, IM me, post or comment to me about anything. I'll be more than happy to rap with ya about anything, Joe related or not.

I just want our playground to be fun. I hope you do too.

Well, I have tryed to better myself after outriders death, I have asked myself what did i love about craig and it was the way he taught us things! the way he could crit your stuff and you would understand what he was saying, ive been trying to do that with people, around here and flickr, some take it good and use it others either give me a nice attitude or dont even reflect on it! So I try and if i get no response i move onto the next couple of shots thats all! people used to take criticism better here is all! :D

I can do this.....I think :p

That doesn't sound like you're getting your head bitten off here. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you...

Outrider had a GREAT "Art Director" style touch. he could help you with tips and you never felt "preached to".

The "not being a jerk" part is the tough one :p

Exactly that's all I know how to be!!! :mad:

:D

This is a cool place. I still feel like a newbie (but in a good way). Lots o folks post cool shots. I learn a lot by the comments, but more by looking at what they do. For example, Hammerfel posted some pics of a battle scene at long distance, then of his camera. Footloose does great photos, then posted pics of his tripods and LED lights. Some years ago, or maybe months, in a Weekend Warriors theme, ppl posted shots of how they did their sets--the stuff you don't see. I liked that. Educational and inspired me to try other approaches.

In honesty, the Internet is a great big place of which I care little about. People often appear on one site then vanish onto another site all the time. That's the nature of the 'Net. People visit a site, lurk, join, contribute, grow tired of it then move on to another site.

I don't care what goes on in the other sites. I care what goes on in JoeDios.

Am I the only one who didn't know there were "cliques"? I've been a member here for a very long time, and with rare exceptions (vacations, etc.), I have come to this site literally every single day since the day I joined! Yet I didn't know about any of this until that big thread a couple of weeks ago.

I guess my point is, is it possible that a few people from either side are blowing this all way out of proportion? I seriously didn't notice any dissent until very recently! Maybe it just means I wasn't paying very close attention...

I always liked your avatar image, Self-Modifier!

I'm in the same boat as you. People give me lists of who's in which camp, and I really have to try hard to care who is on what side. In my mind, they're all JOEDIOS members, and under my protection. :)

I did not know either. I have been on Flickr for a long time mainly because I photograph more than just GI Joe. Star Wars is my first love and I take alot of SW pics. I did not know I was at war with a MSN group :eek:
I do not comment as much as I used to, mainly for lack of time but I will start more. This is an awesome place, thank you Nate for providing it at your expense for us! I am sorry you are having to go through this, I am sure you feel like you are a kindergarten teacher. Long live JD, the BEST place for Joes on the net!

I couldn't have put it better myself. :D

Being part of the 2 groups I would like to say 2 things.

About the MSN Crew:
I was approached by them when I first joined the JD. A good place to share friendship and have a real-time chat. Learned some techniques from them like the macro button and the no-flash rule. It has been a good place for me to practice myself taught English. It is a good place too to share not-toys related subjects.

The Flickr Gang:
In late 2009 I was invited there by Craig because there was the O-Ring group (later called after him) where ARAH fans like me were sharing their pictures (JD was out of business at that time). I enjoy my time there.

I show respect to people in what I say, in my pictures and in my trades; and expect the same.

The only ELITE is in Heaven now. And I think he wouldn't call elite himself.

I didn't realize either that the Flickr people were a clique. I went there because I wanted to post some of my 12in figures and don't really like posting that stuff here, though I have on occasion. Anyway, I am friends on flickr with most of you here and I guess am part of that clique. I just like the fact that some would post multiple angles of pics and things so I could see more. I just love the photo's even though I dont comment on all I still love them all. Really looked at Flickr as Joediosplus.com.

The crazy thing is of all the posts that I have done there and seen of others, no internet politics at all.

WORD UP CARLOS

I never really cared about the 12in Joes at all until joining here, JoeDios, and being very impressed with what i saw. Would like to see more of them. I've recently gotten into Maschinen Krieger, there's a 12" figure and armored suit in that (lights up, does stuff) It's tempting to want to buy that, mostly the desire started by those who posted pics of 12in Joes here.

Go for it!

The 12" Maschinen Krieger? I wish! It's crazy expensive, over $1500 USD. The figure is really nice too, and so is the armor.. and something like 600 made only.. don't tempt me please!

:-P

heck i might be putting this too simple but i see no reason for anyone to clique up here it all action figure where making art from whether it 25th/modern, o-rings, 12", star wars ,PTE , elite force, other ...etc...... so i say have fun and don't take it too seriously and keep posting because , i can't speak or everyone, I relay enjoy looking at what other folks create.

Makes me wonder what people say about me when I'm not around. I stay away from chat rooms on general principal. Flickr is ok but it's kinda clunky and you can only have 200 pics on a free account. I haven't been around long enough to be an elitist old guard secret society member. I like RTG and FF and have been on their underground bus ride talking smack about self important jerks on hisstank. Where does that leave me? Probly in the same boat as the majority of members here, more concerned about gi Joe pictures while I'm here than anythink else. I come here every day for a little escape from my often stressful and backstabby political bs filled job. I have evenbeen working on my own diostory again. The site is not going to suck or dry up if you take steps to prevent it. Take some pics, good bad or ugly. Make some comments. If you lime something, say so. If you see something that could be improved, say so. Just be nice to as many people as you can and let the being nice come back to you or not. Youhave enough drama at home away from your toys alread and you

Could NOT have said it better myself!

No, sorry, I meant post pics of 12" Joes if you want to!

Hammerfel, I would like to say thank you for this site and you do a amzing job maintaining it!!! Im glad you provide us with a place to enjoy our hobby. Politics or not, this is a good thing you are doing here bro!!!(call it brown nosing , kissing ass what ever) I search the web everyday looking for Dio sites and none even come close to this place. Everyone sitting one your high horse, come on down. This guy doesnt deserve the headache!!!!

I like to check pics both here and at Flickr, though for me, summer is a time to spend with family, and outside.

I will always love Joedios first and foremost as I never would have "met" fine folks like Outrider, Toneguns, Price Adam and countless others who encouraged me and gave hints on how to improve lighting and focus in my photography.

I also like the review section which helps with making decisions when budgets run tight.

One feature I like in Flickr is watching the slideshow while eating or sipping a lemonade. That is the ultimate in laziness...no need to type or click, the pictures just keep rolling...:)

I just figured people posted to both to get more comments and feedback.

Thanks for a great place to view and post pictures, and a safe place to play. (Both my 9 and 6 year old check out pictures looking over my shoulder, so I appreciate how most folks keep the language clean.)

Some observations about life, the site, internet and helped by not being on any medication at the moment (shhhhhhh don't tell the pyschiatrists) :p

• People say they want honesty. What they really are looking for is affirmation. Honesty and truth can be brutal at times, and if you're not ready for it, you want your mommy fast.

• When young, single and childless I had time to do stuff that seemed important like chat online (mostly with people at FFURG.com and ex-college friends), watch a lot of TV and Movies, and . Now with a mortage, wife, and kid I'm lucky to watch the local weather these days when not in the lab. When the kid naps, if I don't have yard or house work to do, I customize, take pics, edit pics. Would I like to get to know more here personally? Sure. But knowing your work for now is all I can, and all I can speak to with honesty and occassionally Carlin-esqe sarcasm (see above about honesty).

• You don't learn or get better by being successful. You have to fail. It is the only way to learn. Eight plus years of neuroscience, chemistry, and pharmacology research is more than enough to back that up with peer reviewed work if life hasn't taught you it yet. From time to time, throw up a failure to see what went wrong, and if anyone out there can help. You never know when you'll find the right mentor and they'll get everything going better.

• I mentioned FFURG above. There the rule is if you're going to just compliment (or insult) don't post. If you're going to explain why something is good, what you liked, what you didn't, etc, please go ahead. It takes time, practice, and patience to learn to post questions like that. It also takes a thicker skin and more self-critical eye from the picture poster. But it helps everyone. Those who lack the skills start asking how something is done, the "artist" has should explain, others can learn, copy, and make better work themselves. You may not be able to see what the picture poster means for several attempts, but each one will bring you closer to your personal expectations, and that is all that matters. Whether this would work or could be tried here sounds like what a great number of posters have suggested, but that lies in others hands.

Ok, now that is done. Thanks to Hammerfel for the site. Thanks to the contributors. Thanks to those who have commented on my small amount of things. I've thought about everything said that is constructive, may not have incorporated it, but definitely filing it away for sometime. That's just what's in my mind, it could be schziopherenic.

This should be gospell

Just to chime in, I don't care what one faction or another says or does, I am out of it. I got no problems with anyone that has posted here, in fact I only have problmes with 2 people on the interwebs and neither of them are here (so I will not bring it here).

But I dispise internet drama, I got sucked into some of it a few years ago and since then I just keep away when it rears its ugly head, which is what I am doing now with this situation. It's a waste of time, energy and emotion that can be better spent in other pursuits.



Exactly, real life is the most important thing in the world, no one ever said on thier death bed "I wish I had worked more." While we do this stuff we do for fun, the greatest fun is the smile of your child or a loving touch from you wife, ect.

Hammer, let me join the rest to say thanks for the site, I enjoy it here and enjoy posting my stuffs, I am terrible at commenting on everone ele's projects, see the above statement as to why. But this site is a great conglameration of creative minds and projects.

Where did it all come from?

I'm one of the oldest members here, I'm on flickr, I chat at MSN and go frequently around other G.I. Joe forums. Why am I always the last one to know about this kind of dramas?

I don't see cliques, at least I'm always posting on everyone's job. Probably one of the most active in this role here and I don't feel this groups. Maybe there are, but it is normal to have groups inside a greater group. I wish I'd a better english to explain myself or even to talk more with everyone.

We say here in Brazil something like that: We are searching horns in horse's head.

Very well put Xander.

I created my Flickr account in order to keep in contact with Craig (Outrider) whose access to Joedios was getting weaker and weaker due to internet issues. I believe that's why most of the "flickr gang" went there to begin with. The second reason we went there was because of the animosity created by the fact that we don't like the 25th/movie style of figures. We prefer our vintage style o-ring stuff. Joedios became more and more flooded with average shots featuring them to the point of it being bogged down with 25th stuff. Things were fine until some arguments began and it got worse with the NFO vs. OWN war. It got more and more personal. I think that was what ultimately cemented the divide in this community. There are other things, but this is the aspect that hasn't been brought up yet. The fact is that some people have rubbed other people the wrong way and now Joedios is forever cursed by it. Craig's passing didn't help either. I said this once and I'll say it again. I can't hate this site. It is where I met some of the best of friends, and I would be nowhere without it. I could go on more, but I usually stay out of the politics around here.

I have always been curious about this. What is it with the new figure designs that o-ring fans simply don't like?

My background:
I started with o-rings as I collected vintage stuff when it originally came out. I still have almost all of mine, but the o-rings are breaking and a lot of the screws are rusting, so I fear taking them out of their boxes. Everytime I touch one I'm risking them breaking, and then have to go to the hardware store to find an o-ring.

What I see:
When the 25th's came out, they didn't look too great. Cobra Commander's head was way small, and then the wrists of many looked like they got slashed. but all in all the design has been improving, they are getting more rugged and articulation is getting greater. Not as easy to torso swap like can do with the o-rings, but more easily to customize with other toy lines from other companies. They are a little taller than the o-rings, which means can't fit in the vintage vehicles without retooling. There are pros and cons.

What I do:
I, for one, tend to mix-and-match. One cool o-ring that doesn't exist in the new design is the Techno-Viper. Has anyone noticed I tend to use mine, and original vintage without any stress cracks) from time to time? I have/am doing modern versions of one, but they don't have the unique look as the vintage one. But I mix-and-match, and I've seen some folks mix-and-match new VAMPs and other modern vehicles and equipment with the o-rings.

There is no "cemented divide". This site was not "forever crushed". You are talking yourself into a mindset that does not reflect reality. Heck, look at this thread. Half the people had no idea this was going on. So Hasbro changed toy construction styles. Big deal. Worse things have happened in the world than that! :)

I will always be a o-ring collector. I have retired my vintage collection to the display case. I got tired of breaking crotches & thumbs, loosing weapons and risking rusted screws for a photograph. The newer stuff doesn't have the value to me that my vintage stuff does, I like customizing them and could care less if I loose a weapon (I re-arm most of them anyway). From a photographers point of view you can't beat the new stuff, they pose well, no unsightly rivets and the joints are hidden very well. As a collectible, o-ring all the way.

The divide has calmed down a lot but it did exist, especially last year. I just feel that the site's community has lost some of its camaraderie. I'm not being delusional. I've been on this site long enough to witness all kinds of crazy things. I am hopefull that things will get better here in time.

And I will never be a fan of the new construction style :D

I did just wanna make a point about the NFO/oWn thing. It was never my intent for that to cause an ACTUAL divde in the site, it was more about us having fun with everyone's different collecting style. Hell, I meant for it just to be a week long event that maybe we did once a year or something. (I even PMed Craig to head up the oWn side of things, but he just wanted to watch the wackiness ensue). If people do feel it was a cause (or furthered the cause) of a schism, I'm really sorry.

Just wanted to throw that out there. :D Just where my head was at the time was a lil FUN rivalry at the time, like shirts versus skins type deal. But I think we can all agree it didn't really work that way. My bad.

I understand. It began as a lot of fun. Heck, I posted quite few shots for it right when it started. However the constant rule changes killed it quickly. I think several members took the whole thing the wrong way and it did create a lot of friction, even if it was subtle and isolated.