And that says it all. I have been discouraged from posting many of my dio shots because 25th stuff gets blasted. It's one thing to crit a pick but to trash it cause you don't like the line is a real turn off.

And O-Ring is not G.I. Joe, 12" is. Sorry it came first and paved the way for the HUGE change that was the 3 3/4" stuff which paved the way for 25th.

I don't write this to offend anyone, I loved Joedios and want to love it again. As my gramma used to say, "If you've got nothing nice to say don't say anything."

Would you guys have preferred the opposite figures? I could easily switch them if that's what you both want.

No, I'm cool.

Talking to the guys on the JBL, we didn't know what to call that 2002+ era Joes. The JvC concept was a relaunch, trying to push things forward. People tended to called 'new sculpts' (or for me to make it more stylish, "NU SKULPT"). But when the 25th hit, THOSE are NEW SCULPTS so what do we call that middle era? A bunch of them started calling them "The Bastard Era" or something very close to that. They aren't quite ARAH and they aren't 25A. It's like Brunch. "It's not quite breakfast, it's not quite lunch, but you get the best of both..." (or however that line in the Simpsons was, lol)

I don't know if I think of the o-ring as defining GI Joe. Part of me says, "It's just an articulation style..." But then, I think, "well, no other figure (that i can remember) was doing o-rings." Certainly NOT Star Wars and they have YET to do that! It still kills me that most of those SW figures are t or v crotch styles! It's not like a CloneTrooper can sit down, right? I don't see people complaining about that.

BUT... If we take the ultra-fragile Takara Microman figures... IF Takara did something different with their figures, I bet people would say that it doesn't have the standard articulation. MM have a very distinct build, y'know?

I always felt that what made GI Joe awesome was that it was:

1. It was a military toyline (which seems to have gone off on it's own tangent)

2. TONS of colorful characters. From shiny headed Destro to masked Cobra Commander to the mysterious Snake Eyes, the straight-edged Duke, the cooking Roadblock, the laser guy named Flash, the skin suited diver Torpedo, the tripping Tripwire, etc.

3. Vehicles were a gnarly part of GI Joe. It SHOULD still be. Not all troops run on the ground the whole time. We got such gnarly things like the HAVOC, WHALE, VAMP, HISS, and vehicles of ALL sizes.

4. Price value was great for a lil action figure that beat the crap out of Star Wars in terms of articulation. Articulation made GI Joe popular to me. Be it o-ring, elbow joints, knee joints, etc. That stuff is STILL not standard on a lot of toys!

5. Cartoon and comic to help us kids out. We got a visual action form in the cartoon and a more serious storyline with the comic. IF it was in the comic, I probably wanted it. If it was on the cartoon, well, it brought the toys to life.

Can't think of what else off the top of my head...

Oh and Crosshair. I like the figure. Yes, he can't hold a rifle but I fiddled around with a lot of weapons for him and found a couple that work well. My beef is the head sculpt. He has a big head and a terrible hair style! Fred would be proud of that haircut!

I'm not going to get into an argument over this. You can pick apart my opinions all you want, but your counter points are only your opinions. It would be easy for me to reply on a point by point basis, but that will not get anyone anywhere because it will just go on forever. I have never disrespected anyone else's views , and that's why I'm entitled to my view that the 25th anniversary range is a steaming pile of cr@p. I'm glad you enjoy them, but I'll never spend one more cent on the junk. Thank you and good night.

Not trying to argue - but you are wrong that all of those points where opinions.
They have more posability then original figures mainly because of more movable parts.
They are more true to real scale 1:18 even with the varying headsizes.
The rest is probably opinions and you are right about that.

You are of course totally intitled to your opinion, and I know where you are comming from so I respect that you dislike the 25th a lot. All I wanted to point out - and not just to you is that it gets tiresome to hear 25th bashing just about everytime something is posted - as someone else said they come here to enjoy their hobby, I don't enjoy having to filter out opinions with no constructive critsicm from most of the post- What I'm saying is really, just think about what you are posting before pressing that 'submit reply' button (and this isn't to you personally but to everyone that lets off steam on their favourite pet peve).

I really do see the point that people who collect the originals got screwed over, and that most people are really annoyed by this (I would be to if I had been collecting that long!). Vent all you want, but please keep it in one place such as the 'bash the 25th line' post, it keeps things more tidy and makes for a better atmosphere for us that utilize the 25th :) - Again this wasn't you personally, you just happen to have a lot of the things people hate about the 25th in your post ;)

Note to everyone else reading this : Outrider has posted comments on my pictures containing the 25th and its been just positive comments! So take it with a grain of salt that I picked his reply as an example - it was really meant as in general. Aight back to work! (yeah I'm at work...)

I can't write nothing better to express what I feel .....

Constructive Criticism
 

Alright.
It's been mentioned that we could go on and on, as long as we don't flame each other we are cool though :o
Ok, just to point a few things out,
Haradrel commented:
"They have more posability then original figures mainly because of more movable parts.
They are more true to real scale 1:18 even with the varying headsizes.
The rest is probably opinions and you are right about that."

Now, as far as the 25th Anniversary is concerned, yes they have more articulation, but just because they have more moveable parts it doesn't necessarily make them better or necessarily more articulated.
That probably doesn't make alot of sense to you reading it, so I'm going to do my level best at explaining.
before I do this, please see my review on the 25th Storm Shadow. I don't hate the 25th, I just don't like all the decisions hasbro has made.
http://www.joedios.com/dioramas/sho...php?i=13559&c=9
Back to my explanation on the moveable parts issue, we'll take a simple 1985 RAH Flint. His torso piece is one piece and not moveable (I.e has no articulation as such on the plastic).
Now look at a 25th Figure. It has articulation midway up the torso, however I should point out the following.
1. Cosmetically i don't think it looks right at all, most of the figures that don't have covering armor look like the bodies need pushing up into the ribcage.
2. Does it really benefit you that much when taking pictures, lots of people have coped fine with the Oring style torso and it still offers lots of detail without the man boobs problem.

Here is an example where by putting in a change hasn't really had a great effect. You could counter balance this argument with what has been mentioned about the double jointed knees couldnt you :D
The double jointed knees were a great addition to GIJOE figures.

As for the size issue, this will always be a great debate amongst fans, some want the figures to be all together in scale, as in the RAH mold.. where as other fans want 25th style designs because they appear to be more realistic in design to the body sculpt, for example Destro & Gung-Ho should be taller than Baroness and Scarlett.
This particular argument, i dont think there is truely a right and wrong, because it comes down to preference on the fan, hasbro would have to release two different styles of series per wave.. and i don't think hasbro would do it.

Now back to my point about changes made to 25th figures.. whereby they have included these changes with more articulation and movement in mind,
two points spring to mind from my review here..
The solid nub ontop of the torso (for example no balljoint neck) is a bad move, sure you can pop the head off, but on the 25th Stormshadow I reviewed, he can't look up.. as in to look up at a sentry on guard..
secondly is the sitting down problem.. sure they have double jointed knees.. but theres too much plastic action going on with the torso.. so they have trouble sitting.

Now.. list those back.. we have the problem with the torso ..
the problem with the waist/legs movement and the fact they can't sit.. and the head/balljoint neck issue.
Those are my 3 honest constructive criticisms of hasbro's changes, based on my review of the 25th.. 3 changes that haven't really helped the line at all.. not in any way shape or form..
having said that i've mentioned points in my review that also favour the 25th, lets all be honest.. if hasbro went back to the Oring style construction.. and released all the 25th anniversary figures into RAH sculpt.. would their be any takers..
and if so, how would this reflect on hasbro's business strategy for the future..
"everytime we make a change to the line, it has to be approved by fans.. " Yes.. well no I don't believe it does..
No one single toy line stays still.. if it does.. it perishes.. and dies an old slow death.. Toys have to change it's part of evolving and life.. hasbro aren't forcing you to buy the 25th range of toys.. so if you don't like them, don't buy them.

One final point on the "Oring is gijoe statement" I think it's true in the sense that they grew up with those style of gi Joes.. and that's as far as it goes.. it doesn't matter if you choose to ignore the 25th anniversary, cobra la, sigma 6 and even the feared extreme line or eco warriors.. it's all a brand of GIJOE.. weather or not you choose to admit it.. when we're all dead and gone it will be written in hasbro history archives they had these toys..
Much in the same way the 25th are now a part of GIJOE... deal with it don't deal with it.. your choice .. but saying Oring is gijoe is like an 12" gijoe fan saying 3 3/4 figures aren't gi joe.. all of it is GIJOE.. just because you don't see something .. it doesn't mean to say it doesn't exist.

Props to everyone so far for their cultured and knowledgable debate.. Good Stuff :D

So, your opinions are fact, and mine are just opinions....well go figure! Guess I must have been mistaken all along. No constructive critcism? I would have thought pointing out their faults is just that. "25th sux" is what I call non constructive critcism. And didn't I read somewhere in your first post a line about not disrespecting other people's views?

Differing views
 

You should probably both accept you have differing views on it and move on.. :)

No - I pointed out which were facts and which were opinions quite clearly. - The scale and poseability.
The rest are up for debate - I strongly feel that the 25th are more rigid and prone to not breaking as the original line was with crotches and thumbs (for example).

I do see your point - but it actually is a fact that they are a closer scale - I can speak from 3 years of experience at art school for that one.
And I still think they offer a lot more poseability then the originals - but as Urban Saboteur pointed out this might be up for debate - Though I'll address that issue later and show why more points of articulation gives better poseability.

My point was not that your criticisms here was non-constructive - quite the opposite - but that in general we get a lot of bashing for the 25th line even in places where it shouldn't be.

I never disrespected your views, in fact I agreed with most of them and even said that I respected your point of view because you came from a background of collecting joes over time. Respect mine please.


Its still civil ;) I will however agree to disagree if something gets to heated and leave it at that - right now we seem to be having a difference in taste is all.

Just to clarify..
 

Oh and to clarify.. i posted to try and humble the convo.. i wasn't attempting to throw my weight around.. truth is i dont think i could take another man/joe drama :o :)

Good call, Rich. I'm not in the mood for another drama/fight to break out.

I think it gets old when people are constantly bashing the 25th. You don't see me bashing the ARAH or the folks who want ARAH back. Cuz I DON'T want to see those molds again. This is, of course, a guy who keeps ARAH in his memories and the Bastard Era were the bomb. The 25A, it's funny, I really can't recommend the line to friends. I cite that there are a few good figures and I don't know if there are more misses than hits (or vice versa).

I do know that Craig bought the 1st 2 5-packs and therein lies most of his opinions. This is how I see it (hope Craig doesn't mind)

Generalities.
-The figures can't look up or down very well (bastard era had that problem too).

-Some figures have special sculpted hands which means different weapons don't work in them (ARAH had this too at times).

-The redux of outfits (Even tho this might be following the SW/TF idealogy)

-size variance. Doesn't fit in with the other eras (yet, maybe they aren't supposed to be mixed. :p )

-Lack of ability to sit down (tho it's been fixed for the most part)

Specifics.

-Duke's arms can't bend worth crap (unless you cut the bicep).

-Roadblock has skinny legs, lack of arm articulation and a goofy left hand.

-Gung Ho has lack of arm articulation and looks kinda like someone else.

-Scarlet, I'm not sure.

-Snake Eyes, not sure how Craig can complain.

-Cobra Commander has a closed fist?

-Destro's a tad thin?

-Cobra Trooper, not sure how Craig can complain.

-Baroness... We won't even go there.

-Storm Shadow, not sure what the problem is.



I don't remember if Craig got any of the singles. But as some have said, the figures that first came out and those coming out now (uh, give or take the Viper) are pretty awesome. It's still hit and miss as far as I can tell and the variants of figures are pretty annoying.

BUT at least there is NOW a huge separation 'tween ARAH and 25A, right? You won't get 'em mixed up!!! It was stated by TRU that they hate collectors. There was a thread on the JBL about that one...

Didn't think you were ;) We all need to "cool our heads" when it becomes to heated - And with something we love and pour our hearts (and money) into its bound to be touchy on a few things. I'll promise from my side that there will be no drama, just debate ;)

I'll post pictures later with an explanation on articulation to prove that the 25th have better poseability. For now I have a dog to walk (I'm dog watching this weekend for a friend) so I can't post to much or to long (the dog has ADHD and is hyper-active)

Look, it hasn't been anything but civil; a little warm perhaps, but I for one would not let things spiral into personal insults or childish garbage like that. We disagree, and that's it. I respect people's opinions that differ from mine even though I will never agree with them, and expect only the same in return. I can be a stubborn, hard headed old b@stard, but you won't hear "your opinion sux" or the like from me.

We are very much alike then ;)
Well after having a dog with ADHD which is hyper too all day as well as airsofting for 4 hours I'm pretty tired right about now :eek:
I'll throw up some pictures and an explanation on why more points of articulation will lead to better posability (as well as show the new 25th's can look up just as well as the old ones can). Hope everyone is enjoying their weekend!

And o-ring or not, this is still a great hobby ;) (I just got my Marauder order today :D)

I voted to bring back the o-ring -- must say I don't really appreciate the blatant bias in the wording of the poll questions, basically saying that 25th has been forward progress and anyone who doesn't like it is closed-minded. I've never seen ANYONE say they don't like 25th just because it's different, they usually back up their opinion with quite specific reasons.

And I now feel more qualified in my own opinion, because...

I NOW OWN SOME 25TH FIGURES!!!

They feel all spindly; a lot of their articulation (arms especially) doesn't move smoothly, they want to be locked in a few particular positions; they hold their weapons like they're scared of them; Fred/CG's lower leg & knee popped out of his thigh the first time I tried to bend them. And, they all look like they need their upper torso pushed about half an inch further down onto their lower section.

I'll get BATs, maybe characters who've never had a figure before since I'm not going to get them any other way, but I'm not encouraged to replace any of my existing collection, or even get 25th versions of figures I DON'T have already.

Vehicles, though -- really wish I could find those...!

You didn't disagree with me here, only that you thought it didn't make them better.
Here's a few example of more natural poses because of the extra articulation.
(storm shadow and jinx better posing) (flint natural shooting pose) (storm shadow and jinx better posing 2)

(Flint aiming)
the 25th flint gets his gun in his shoulder and can aim through the sight and holds his gun in a natural way
(other flint aiming)
The same goes for this one, only his other hand is at an awkward angle (no wrist movement)

(dialtone not aiming)
Dialtone can't look through his sights, and does not hold a very natural pose.



I won't disagree completely with you here, just say that the original line has the same problem only lower down - view example here:
(looking up belly)



I personally don't find the man boobs to be such a huge problem, but I guess this is a taste thing, point of fact is that the 25th are more

true anatomically then their earlier brethren even with the man boobs. (but it is a heroic line, so take that with some grain of salt.)



True, but I'm chalking this one up to taste differences - I really don't like how the o-ring torso suddenly just ends and you see the

opening and o-ring when leaning the figures back.



Agreed :)




Agreed :) Taste issue again - or personal preference by any other name



Here I have to say that you are wrong, and I'll prove it with pictures. He has actually the same range of movement as the older figures.
see here:
(Stormy looking up)
in the picture jinx actually can't look up at all!



Trouble? I've never had any trouble with them, they have longer legs so not all accessories fit them is all. See even the "diaper" 25th can

sit down (flint is one of these)

(Sitting Down)



I think I've proven that some of those issues were not completely accurate, whilst the rest was a taste/personal preference thing.




Agreed on all points :)




Indeed :) And again don't take this reply personally, you just pointed out a few things that I think most nay sayers to the 25th line have
a problem with.



All in all I think some of the "old school" collectors need to convince themselves not to buy the 25th because of the economic impact on

their wallet - so they try to build up under the theory that the 25th are an inferior product to the original line.
I'm saying maybe, MAYBE as toys, but for collectors the 25th should be the best thing since sliced bread - this is just my personal opinion

and all the taste/preference things come to mind.

it all boils down to taste/personal preference if you ask me.
The older lines had problems with thumb and crotch breaking as well as a few loose limbs from time to time.
So far my 25th have experienced very few loose limbs (only 3 or 4 out of probably 50-60 figures - and not those that I use the most) and no

breakages - But this might be my handling of them as an adult so I won't say that for sure (anybody with kids who plays with 25th can chime in with a view point on this).
I also really don't like the scale of the original line as opposed to the new 25th - but I prefer things to come off as natural as possible, so that really is a personal taste/preference thing. Again after having done art for 3 years at school you get kind of 4n4l about such things

(yes I just leeted to avoid a bad word :p)

I will however firmly believe that if some of the nay sayers pick up a few of the 25th and take a few photographs with them, you will see

that they are superior when it comes to photography as opposed to the old school stuff. - The molds are better, the expressions are pretty

good as well (though you get some classic faces from the older lines, I never really liked the overly humorous faces on them - even as a kid

I never got why Flint was smirking all the time.)

I looked thru 'em all and one could say this case study is a bit biased. Don't take offense Haradrel, I absolutely applaud what you've done here. HOWEVER...

I would've done a shot using ALL Storm Shadows to make the point for the 1st sample. Can ARAH Storm Shadow get into those positions? Personally, I don't know.

Sample 2. You are using a JvC Flint vs 25A Flint. Do you have a comic book Flint or an original ARAH Flint to sample against?

Sample 3. Now I get it. That division between waist and torso throws ya off unless they have something to cover it (DTC Cobra Trooper, for example). HOWEVER, with us taking pictures, there are ways to get around this, right? Foto manipulation???

Sample 4. I personally don't get the man boobs problems.

Sample 5. The looking up problem. I think this is very debatable. A lot of the 25A can NOT look up. BUT a lot of the bastard era figures can't either. I just pulled out what I have and you want a small list of those who can NOT? Widescope, VvV Duke, ST Recondo, JvC Beach Head, JvC Dusty, etc. Some can look down a bit better (JvC Roadblock, ST Crosshair, ST REcondo, etc). The ONLY one that I can find quickly that can look up is Major Barrage and he's using that swell SW joint system. Comic Pack Tunnel Rat can look up and down too but Cross Country can't.

Also, ARAH figures have heads that can swivel 360!

Sample 6. The sitting issue. I personally don't care. So what if they have to sit like Sharon Stone most of the time??? lol I understand that sitting is a big issue but I have a bigger beef with a guy like Duke not getting 90 degrees out of his elbows.

No offence taken - it was the figures I had as an example, chosen at random. :)



I would like to have done that too, but I don't have the ARAH Stormy - Anybody else care to post a picture (that has both) ?



Again no, my options are quite limited, so I used what was at hand. Again somebody else might make a better comparison. But all in all this was in general - So my points still stand.



Bingo! :) What I am saying is that both lines have the same issue, just a tad variation of it. Taste/preference thing again ;)



Me neither, but its a taste thing me thinks.



Here I disagree and would like to point back to the pictures as proof. They can look up, they don't have the same range of head movement (which is a completely different thing), by using the torso they can move their upperbody back and look up. Its actually more natural then the ARAH figures this way.



That was my point. There probably is or will be 25th that won't have the same headmovement/upperbody movement - but this isn't news as the older lines had the same problems - Take for example ARAH(?) Jinx - She can't turn her head very well, and she can't look up


Not sure if that is a good or bad thing ;)



:) I whole heartedly agree.
One of the "problems" of the 25th line is that you can't get 90 degrees out of elbows without cutting - I have never cut the elbows but still I am able to create natural poses for them without to much hassle.
Hopefully this is one of those things that will be looked at by Hasbro for future releases (they fixed the "diapers" so maybe they will fix this as well?).

The Vipers for example can Kneel perfectly - also a problem for most 25th, again a problem which can be overcome with some ingenuity.


Good to see this debate "rage" on. Who knows we might be able to change a few perceptions and maybe address a few future issues for Hasbro in one go

I don't want to be overly critical but the proper term for "man boobs" is "pectorals".

I think the chest articulation makes the 25A figures look more muscular but the ARAH waist movement was more natural and being able to lean from side to side, they have more range.

Hehe, I guess man boobs has been the official slang for something we don't like. I also dub the bastard era figures bearers of "gorilla arms" ;) :p

On the chest articulation, I disagree (not something new) The 25th lean more naturally to the side instead of having the whole upper body follow, you can turn them somewhat. But I dub this up for debate.

No, I can tell you there's definitely a difference. As much as I wish it were otherwise, I unfortunately don't have large, defined pectorals...

Haradrel, the looking up issue, I was thinking of JUST the head itself, not using the chest piece to help. But it's probably hit and miss on all 3 sides of the eras (4 if you include Extreme, 5 w/ the 8"?). Fotography wise, just take the picture from a lower angle and from the back. Or do the same with the front and just the head. lol!

None of the 25A figures I own have chest articulation that allow them to lean to the side. (For peeking or shooting around corners.)

This is getting sooo boring! I'm out! :rolleyes:

Constructive Criticism
 

Right. First of all when a normal person looks up at something they generally use their neck do they not?

In your pic you have all the figures with bent knees.. now.. if you could actually show me a figure of the 25th anniversary using his head/neck joint actually looking up.. then my point would be inaccurate..
don't get me the wrong way, I aint saying the RAH figures were any better for it either, I'm just saying for a modern figure that's so ''Brilliantly touted'' across the action figure world.. it's actually quite a crud thing they can't look up properly.

I'll get you a pic of a proper figure that can look up and show you what i mean.. ;)

Looking up...
 

Ok, no bent knees or arched back and he's looking up using the articulation in the neck... this is what i was referring to. ;)
25th Anniversary figures would be alot better if they had articulation in the neck/head. The fact it's just a stub and head is a hinderence to the sculpt :o

I know what you were saying with the looking up part. But you have to be more specific. Just the head is completely different. And its not natural, try looking up and you'll see that you will arch your back somewhat as well as bend the knees if its "way up there", just moving your head isn't natural at all. (where the head goes the body follows).
I think Sonny said it best that its hit and miss all across the lines with that one.

So they can look up, they just can't look up with just their heads - which I figure is a good thing because the neck looks weirder that way with the pop-on/off heads.

25th Discussion cont..
 

It's good that you realise what i was referring to..

I quote from my earlier post.
"The solid nub on top of the torso (for example no ball joint neck) is a bad move, sure you can pop the head off, but on the 25th Stormshadow I reviewed, he can't look up.. as in to look up at a sentry on guard.."

I referred to both the head and neck in my post.. not sure where it was i lost you.. but nevermind.. :o

Back to what you posted:

"Here I have to say that you are wrong, and I'll prove it with pictures. He has actually the same range of movement as the older figures.
see here:
(Stormy looking up)
in the picture jinx actually can't look up at all!"

I wasn't so much wrong was I? I mean I didnt say that the 25th were better or worse than the RAH.. just simply I'm pointing out they aren't all they can be.. and if you can refer back to me earlier post.. I'm actually against hasbro going back to Oring.. :o

"The solid nub on top of the torso (for example no ball joint neck) is a bad move, sure you can pop the head off, but on the 25th Stormshadow I reviewed, he can't look up.. as in to look up at a sentry on guard.."


Well you stated that they can't look up, which they can, but they have to use their body as well - as most of the ARAH figures and bastardsline. I took notice in that and not the head/neck thing as that is pretty obvious (I hope!).

But this just nitpicking really. I guess we agree to a point here :)




No no, misinterpit me correctly :) I totally got your point that they don't have optimal head movement - but that this isnt neccicarily better or worse. I agree that they could be better - you were just playing devils advocate (as I did a few post earlier) :) Its all good.

I'm not against change. I don't feel it'd be a backwards step to go back to o-ring if they can fix things right.

Heres my opinion.

25th-

GOOD- something out of the ordinary, New, fresh.

BAD- Somr crappy figure designs, massive repaints and reuse of weapons and gear, and also, a loss of major fanbase.( Frank,Outrider,etc)


o Ring

Good-Detailed,Fun,Original

Bad- Joints snapping, O rings breaking
The cost too D*** much.


Thats why I like hte 25th, remakes of the originals for us to see what we missed and older geezers to relive their past.

But they're so easy to replace; a small phillips head screwdriver and a bag of spare o-rings (Smalljoes sell 'em by the hundred), and your done!

Still it entails extra unwanted work and expenses - much like the "not being able to bend 90 degrees" on the 25th - easily fixable with a scalpel/knife, but still unwanted work and expense ;)