Somali Pirates about to get theirs?

[ender098]

[FONT=System] Ok, to me this is ridiculous. It's the 21st century and we have 3rd world scumbags in skiffs capturing yachts, frigates and cargo freighters and holding them for Ransom! WTF? Here is where we should focus the War on Terrorism! And from the sound of it, looks like these bad boys are about to have the whole world come down on them. And it's about time!!


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081005/ap_on_re_af/battling_piracy

I've been trying to find the Story I read a few days ago when a man from a British Think-tank group said that the best plan of action is to pay the pirates. That's like saying the best plan of action for a serial killer is to let him kill! I thought we don't negotiate with terrorists? That's why a lot of countries have such issues with Terrorists. Pay them off or submit to them and you're encouraging that behavior and showing them that crimes DOES INDEED pay! Do they really think these guys are gonna quit? They need some SEALS and Marines to take that Ship, then Patrol the Somali coast and sink anything that leaves shore for about 2-3 years! They should kill those Pirates, stuff their bodies and hang them from ships that pass through those waters until they get the idea that AK-47's are no match for Aircraft Carriers and NAVY SEALs!
[/FONT]





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[haradrel]

I read the article at a local paper here.

The problem with the river pirates there is that they are in the infra-structure, you are not only fighting the pirates, but the pirates families, the entire country by default.
Much like Iraq/Afghanistan.

Things are not as simple as they seem. - They could always go in there gun blazing, but it wouldn't make much difference in the big picture, its like putting a band-aid on a decapitation.

------
edited:
As an afterthought, the captain of the captured vessel is dead, of heart failure - the Pirates refused to let him go. So things in this particular instance might change quite rapidly.

[Trench-Viper]

I hear Sweden is interested in joining.
I think that the international community has the ability to find every pirate ship maybe not all at once but enough to make them have to really work for the money.

[Trench-Viper]

[QUOTE=haradrel]
The problem with the river pirates there is that they are in the infra-structure, you are not only fighting the pirates, but the pirates families, the entire country by default.
Much like Iraq/Afghanistan.

[/QUOTE] So fight them on the water.

[haradrel]

[QUOTE=Trench-Viper]So fight them on the water.[/QUOTE]

You are simplifying a very complex problem.
You can't be on the water 24/7 - and even if you manage to somehow do that, they will turn their attention elsewhere, inland.
It won't fix the problem, only move it.

[vespapilot79]

I have a feeling if they send in the SEALS and the GSG9 and whoever else they can get, those Somalis are going to have a very heavy lunch fed to them with some of the most kickass clandestine MOFOs in the world. I wish I could be a fly on the wall to see all the goodness go down!! This behavior can no longer be tolerated. Even the higher ups in Somalia have given the green light to deal with the pirates in lethal manners. Send 1 sub out there to patrol the waters. Thier fish will hit thier mark and the pirates will never know they're in for a helluva party!!

[Outrider]

I'm with you Frank. Don't reward the evil b@stards, give them a taste of their own medicine, the only thing they understand. They choose to act in that way, let them pay the price.

[Trench-Viper]

[QUOTE=haradrel]You are simplifying a very complex problem.
You can't be on the water 24/7 - and even if you manage to somehow do that, they will turn their attention elsewhere, inland.
It won't fix the problem, only move it.[/QUOTE]
I see your point, but I am talking about securing the shipping lines not fixing Somalias problems. The underlying problems will allways be there.

[troopsofdoom]

The Canadian Navy has been doing escort duty for ships taking relief supplies into Somalia. They've also made a number of smuggling and drug trafficking busts in the Middle East and the Caribbean. But it's just a drop in the bucket. These countries need to police themselves but they don't care if tons of cocaine are being shipped out of their country to North America. Doesn't affect them.

Using tax dollars to pay off pirates is absurd. I've noticed a disturbing trait of siding with the bad guys that's becoming more and more prevalent in the world today.

[haradrel]

[QUOTE=Trench-Viper]I see your point, but I am talking about securing the shipping lines not fixing Somalias problems. The underlying problems will allways be there.[/QUOTE]

Again its a pretty big picture to consider, it may sound easy but its a pretty big sea there even within the normal Shipping Lanes.
My dad was a sailor for over 40 years and told me about that particular Sea.

We can only hope that they get around to do something to better the situation, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

[Roland da Thompson Gunner]

[QUOTE=ender098][FONT=System] I thought we don't negotiate with terrorists?[/QUOTE]

Who told you that? Governments have always dealt with terrorists, did you ever learn about the dirty wars in South America? The Contras were terrorists and they had deals with the American Government. So did Al Qaida in the 80's when they were on "our side"

[Outrider]

[QUOTE=troopsofdoom]I've noticed a disturbing trait of siding with the bad guys that's becoming more and more prevalent in the world today.[/QUOTE]

Ain't it the sad,sad truth... :mad:

[ender098]

[FONT=System][QUOTE=haradrel]
The problem with the river pirates there is that they are in the infra-structure, you are not only fighting the pirates, but the pirates families, the entire country by default.
Much like Iraq/Afghanistan.

Things are not as simple as they seem. - They could always go in there gun blazing, but it wouldn't make much difference in the big picture, its like putting a band-aid on a decapitation.

------
edited:
As an afterthought, the captain of the captured vessel is dead, of heart failure - the Pirates refused to let him go. So things in this particular instance might change quite rapidly.[/QUOTE]


Well, if you sink everything bigger than a life preserver I think that will solve the issue. The issues with Somalia are the same issues with most of the Middle East. People from different tribes and clans too busy killing each other to stick together and make something out of their country. We can help them, but THEY have to be willing to do the work themselves, and it's too important to them to kill each other and sit around all day jacked up on Khat then try to build business and infrastructure. Heck, if they try, a rival clan comes in an attacks it and steals what they can. Yeah, you can't solve their issues, but THAT is NOT OUR Problem...it's THEIRS! And I for one am tired of giving welfare to 3rd world nations who's leaders pocket the cash and let the people suffer. We tried to help them, remember? Watch "Black Hawk Down". We sent in food and aid and the warlords kept it all for $$$. Let them sort out their country!

OUR Problem is that international waters off their coast are becoming their source of income at OUR expense. And the best way to stop Piracy is with firepower! Do you think we should tell a guy who is stealing to feed his kids it's ok, when he is perfectly able to get a job?


[QUOTE=haradrel]You are simplifying a very complex problem.
You can't be on the water 24/7 - and even if you manage to somehow do that, they will turn their attention elsewhere, inland.
It won't fix the problem, only move it.[/QUOTE]


True, People Can't be on the sea 24/7, but sea mines and sensors and satellites can. And what can they turn their attention inland to? No one drives through Somalia. Hell, since the government collapsed they stripped the telephone and electric lines to sell the copper. They have nothing to make money on while in their country, that's why they are stealing stuff on the high seas. And the only way to protect other countries assets on the high seas is to hunt down these Pirates and Kill them. If we do nothing, we just appease them, what do thy do? They keep stealing and murdering. If we surround them and force them to sit in their country and not have a life, they will either make a country out of Somalia or die. That may sound harsh, but I doubt these guys are rays of sunshine coming over the decks of your boat with AK's in hand! Kill 'em all, says I!




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[rds13601]

The US does work with the Somali warlords now to monitor and eliminate Al Queda cells there. As for the the ship; the boat containts T-72 tanks bought from the Ukraine by Kenya. I picture a navy seal night assault with them killing every pirate aboard. I think as time goes on the pirate ransome rapidly goes down!!

[troopsofdoom]

Frank for president! :D

[haradrel]

[QUOTE=ender098][FONT=System]
True, People Can't be on the sea 24/7, but sea mines and sensors and satellites can.

[/FONT][/QUOTE]

Which goes back to the original problem: money - I'm not sure anybody is willing to put up the money to do all this, I'm pretty sure most governments consider it "acceptable losses" if 1 out of every 20 ships gets taken. (That was a random number, not based on reality btw).

Shooting down the opposition isn't always the answer. What if - And this is just wild conjecturing mind you -
You stop the pirates, yay, shipping lanes are free - The leftover pirates then get so desperate they form into even bigger militias, suddenly you have a border war going on - suddenly there are pirates there as well and it escalates into some of the African countries going to war with Asian countries bordering close to them...

I am of course blowing things wildly out of proportion here - but I think that unless you have a seat in a Captains chair on one of those boats - or live there, you can't really say what should or should not be done.
We lack the whole picture, whilst shooting anything that even resembles a pirate sounds good in theory, we do know that theory and practical applications vary very much from what was intended to the end result you get.

I can understand people getting angry over this and want to kill every pirate there is, but again we don't have the whole picture here, and more often then not, more violence to solve a violent problem is usually an answer you should consider to be the last resort.

We'll see what happens next in the newspapers, but I doubt that the problem will be fixed very soon by a few well placed tactical strikes.

[Urban Saboteur]

So I missed this the first time round, shame that, because I've lost count of the number of actual real life stories I've read over the last 5 years involving real hijacking at sea.
It's not just actually on the open sea, at these secluded bays.. it's happening there too. I read one story where pirates had commanded or stolen a powerboat and were using it to rob other boats and islands.

It's not like pirates of the carribbean where they are using interceptors and the black pearl.. they are keeping up with modern times and using modern techniques..
What makes Pirates different from terrorists or any every day person that commits a crime?
Nothing.. the fact they come from a different country means squat to me.. because they've done the crime so they should do the time..

The solution is to have a co-existing fully operational customs team that can launch at full speed to intercept these pirates and stop this from happening.. hey even if it reduces the amount of attacks then I can welcome it.
That guy who said we should pay them wants casting out to sea!! Make him walk the plank... :o

A story I heard about, was one about 3 years back, a group of people were on one of those island cruises.. there were about 20 of them on this personal boat.. and they anchored at this small island to sunbathe, after about 45 minutes to 1 hour of being there, this powerboat came out of nowhere and these guys brandished all sorts of weaponry from personal guns to long machetes and threatened all sorts of things with the tourists, they made off with so much money from the holiday makers and threatened to shoot the tourist guides and the skipper of the boat (which would essentially mean the tourists would of been stranded).

For the most times i've read this it seems to happen far out from governed areas, such as Africa and South America.. I think theres always a solution to the problem. I mean if a country doesn't care about it's population that has to be addressed and it shouldnt be ignored. After all if we can go to Afghanistan and Iraq to sort out that country.. shouldn't we do it with the African ones as well? Or is it because those two particular countries.. have something of resource, where as Somalia doesn't..

[Roland da Thompson Gunner]

[QUOTE=ender098]
OUR Problem is that international waters off their coast are becoming their source of income at OUR expense. And the best way to stop Piracy is with firepower! Do you think we should tell a guy who is stealing to feed his kids it's ok, when he is perfectly able to get a job?
[/QUOTE]

Doesn't the whole "When he is perfectly able to get a job" thing get contradicted by:


[QUOTE=ender098]
True, People Can't be on the sea 24/7, but sea mines and sensors and satellites can. And what can they turn their attention inland to? No one drives through Somalia. Hell, since the government collapsed they stripped the telephone and electric lines to sell the copper. They have nothing to make money on while in their country[/QUOTE]

But hey if you feel there should be another war (especially when the US has 2 they can't afford going) more power too you, different strokes for different folks

[haradrel]

http://www.vg.no/nyheter/utenriks/artikkel.php?artid=537831

This is of course in Norwegian - but let me translate the important parts here:

"I Somalia er pirater godt organisert og har mye våpen. Piratene har også støtte fra lokalsamfunnene og deler av myndighetene. Noen pirater lover også å finansiere veier og skoler med løsepenger.

Og siden de fleste kapringer ender med utbetaling av millioner av kroner, blir piratvirksomhet regnet som svært lønnsomt i Somalia. Piratene skader sjelden gislene sine, men haler ut tiden i påvente av store utbetalinger.

Og det er en strategi som har vist seg å fungere. Ifølge en rapport fra en London-basert tenketank som kom i forrige uke har somaliske pirater fått utbetalt rundt 30 millioner dollar, eller nesten 200 millioner kroner, i løsepenger hittil i år."

Which translates into:
-----
In Somalia pirates are well organized and have lots of weapons. The Pirates also have support from the local community and parts of the government. Some Pirates even promise to finance roads and schools with ransom money.

And since most hijacks(can't remember the direct word here...) usually end up with millions of money being paid in ransom the piracy profession is very lucrative for Somalia. The Pirates rarely hurt their hostages, but draw out time to get even bigger payments.

Its a strategy that has proven itself to work. According to a rapport from a London based thinktank, Somalian Pirates have thus far this year had 30 million dollars paid to them in ransom.

-----

I can translate more if anyone is interested.

This last piece might be of interest:

"Ifølge Jennifer Cooke ved Center for Strategic and International Studies i Washington er det å ta gisler nøkkelen til piratenes suksess for å holde militærmakter som USA og Russland på en armlengdes avstand.

- Når du holder gisler med våpen, kan du også holde seks krigsskip fra den amerikanske marinen på avstand og de har få andre valg enn å vente, sier Cooke."

Translated:
----
According to Jennifer Cooke from The Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington is the taking of hostages the key for the Pirates success in holding military powers such as the US and Russia at an arm lengths distance.

-When you hold hostages with guns to their heads, then you can also hold six battle cruisers from the American Navy at bay, they have little choice but to wait . says Cooke.
----

I might have paraphrased some here and not directly translated everything 100%, but you get the general gist of it.

[ender098]

[QUOTE=Roland da Thompson Gunner]Doesn't the whole "When he is perfectly able to get a job" thing get contradicted by:




But hey if you feel there should be another war (especially when the US has 2 they can't afford going) more power too you, different strokes for different folks[/QUOTE]


Yes, I should have stated what I meant more clearly. Somalia has the RESOURCES to make their country great (thus, they don't NEED to steal). They just lack the unity to make something of their country and harvest their resources for their own benefit. Somalia's current state of affairs is due to their lack of unified government. No one will invest in their country because they can't guarantee the safety of contractors and support personnel needed to help them build. You can give handouts, but you can't give Government.

No, I don't believe we need another war. What I believe is we need to quit sending economic aid to countries while our economy is in the crapper, then we could afford to fight these wars.

[ender098]

Haradrel, What do you think SHOULD be done? Do you think because they don't hurt the hostages, they should be paid off? I understand they have little industry in their country and they feel that they are FORCED to to this to make money, but by the same Token, they can use the boats for fishing and make money. It just seems to me they are too lazy to work hard and make something out of their own country, and it's much easier to put gun in someone's face and take what others have worked hard for.

I understand it's hard for them to make a living. Life is not easy in Somalia, but they DON'T have the right to steal. I'd like to help them make their country great and civilized, but THEY have to put in the work. If that were the case, then why have cities and civilization? Just wait until someone makes industry and steal from them.

When you say there's no simple solution, do you mean to Somalia? Or to end the Piracy?

[Urban Saboteur]

[QUOTE=ender098]It just seems to me they are too lazy to work hard and make something out of their own country, and it's much easier to put gun in someone's face and take what others have worked hard for.

Life is not easy in Somalia, but they DON'T have the right to steal. I'd like to help them make their country great and civilized, but THEY have to put in the work. [/QUOTE]

This is what I was trying to say in my post before, it doesnt really matter which country you come from, Piracy is Piracy.. life is tough in somalia.. it's tough in other countries too, but the only way these countries are going to get any better is if they are willing to help themselves from the get go, that means their own leaders actually organizing the country better, and making sure that they have the right resources to feed all the starving..
Making sure that they give sanctions so that piracy can be stopped in their own country and allowing contractors to do the work so that they can make something of the country.. create and industry where jobs will become available..

it all really has to start from the get-go, if everyone isnt paddling in the same direction.. theres going to be chaos.. which is what you see with most of these 3rd world countries

[haradrel]

[QUOTE=ender098]Haradrel, What do you think SHOULD be done? [/QUOTE]

I neither have the real world experience nor intelligence to dictate what should be done to fix such a problem. And I doubt very much that any of us here do. Sure we can debate it all we want, but I don't think it will lead to anything.

My points is simply this, The guns blazing method has been tried and tested and found wanting. I'd like to point out that you say that the government in Somalia can't be trusted - even by the people. And as you said, they don't have to steal to make something of their country but they do.

Personally I think there is a deeper psychological issue at work with the whole people here, all they have ever known is war, its hard to tell someone like that to "shape up your life and stop doing what has been working so far for you". They are inherently damaged as people, you keep comparing them to someone from your own country or a country that has a normal economy with no wars happening on and in their country - I think you lack the bigger picture concerning the PEOPLE there.

I've met a few refugees from Somalia - even had my life threatened by one. I've never come across a more ruined people psychologically wise. So what do I think needs to be done?
Start with helping the people. - Hand outs can only do so much, if it was up to me I would stop that all together - Cut the country off from all neighbors and start helping the people there help themselves. Even as unlikely as that would be, it would be a starting point.

But as I said in the start, I very much doubt we here on the board have any say in this as we lack a bigger picture and experience with this. Sure you can feel anything you want about the subject and think you have the answers, but I don't think it would help much.


[QUOTE=ender098]When you say there's no simple solution, do you mean to Somalia? Or to end the Piracy?[/QUOTE]
In this case they are one and the same - Stopping Piracy on the boarders of Somalia would only increase the stress somewhere else - it would move the problem not remove it.

[troopsofdoom]

Force is the only way to stop a criminal. Us Armchair Generals can argue about the where, when, who and why but force is the only permanent solution.

[haradrel]

[QUOTE=troopsofdoom]Force is the only way to stop a criminal. Us Armchair Generals can argue about the where, when, who and why but force is the only permanent solution.[/QUOTE]

Is it really?
So the kid who steals a candy bar in a shop should get the living daylights beaten out of him?

[vespapilot79]

The sad part of all of this. If you kill those piratres, how many are waiting to take thier place? I agree with having a special multi national task force dedicated to patrolling the waters. Everyone that does any business in that area of shipping should have an interest in protecting their property and lives of the crews. Its not going to immediately solve the problem unfortunately. Place a cookie jar out of a childs reach, that child will eventually get that cookie jar. They will figure out another way to reach thier goal. Should the cargo ships have 50cal deck guns and possibly anti ship missiles and properly trained people to operate them? Should we blow them outta the water on sight? We do have the right to protect ourselves from harm. Maybe the answer lies in an escort by some armed ships provided by the task force? I say find thier ports where they dock, and obliterate thier means of transport. If we can send a cruise missile into an air conditioning duct, we should have no problem hitting thier boats. I do agree that they do need help rebuilding thier country and government. The normal people are the ones suffering. You do have to remove the roots if you want the tree to stop growing.

[troopsofdoom]

[QUOTE=haradrel]Is it really?
So the kid who steals a candy bar in a shop should get the living daylights beaten out of him?[/QUOTE]
We were talking about pirates, but...

I don't know what it's like in Norway but in North America there is a growing belief that spanking your kids is wrong, even criminal. Parents have been charged with abuse for disciplining their kids. Even the repercussions for youth crimes are becoming less and less simply because "they're only kids." And every year youth crime grows and becomes more violent. Does nobody see the connection?

[haradrel]

[QUOTE=troopsofdoom]We were talking about pirates, but...

I don't know what it's like in Norway but in North America there is a growing belief that spanking your kids is wrong, even criminal. Parents have been charged with abuse for disciplining their kids. Even the repercussions for youth crimes are becoming less and less simply because "they're only kids." And every year youth crime grows and becomes more violent. Does nobody see the connection?[/QUOTE]

Which was my point.
You made the connection quite clear though - if they are criminal then use force to punish them.
So suddenly in this example you had to take into account that it was a child.

Well there are many things to take into account about Somalian pirates. Some of them are children too you know.

Force isn't always the best answer - Especially in cases such as this - as has been proven time and time again. You can throw enough soldiers and bombs on a problem, but it will not make it go away.

As to the connection you tried to hint at. I do believe crime has always been violent and growing - more people means more things that can go wrong - there has been not a single thing proven that NOT hitting your kids will make them grow up to be bad. It has been proven though that hitting kids will cause psychological effects that will ripple through them for years into the future. - Now think about the Somalians for 2 seconds and put yourself in their place - they have lived with war their entire lives. It is the only thing they know - Actually I think your example was a really good one to make my point on.

[Pit Viper v2]

I think the Navy should come up besides the pirate ship and have sailors swing aboard on ropes and fight the pirates with swords. Tell me that wouldn't be bad ass.

[haradrel]

[QUOTE=Pit Viper v2]I think the Navy should come up besides the pirate ship and have sailors swing aboard on ropes and fight the pirates with swords. Tell me that wouldn't be bad ass.[/QUOTE]

Ah if only that had worked ;)

[EasySimpleStuff]

[QUOTE=haradrel]Is it really?
So the kid who steals a candy bar in a shop should get the living daylights beaten out of him?[/QUOTE]


Not that this is politically correct , but yep... it WOULD stop him from stealing...Not that it should be done or that its right, just effective... but wrong. :rolleyes:

[Trench-Viper]

I am not saying that we should invade Somalia to find some pirate gangs I am saying that the ships that ply those waters should get protection from pirates by having gunships and armed guards with them.

[jcast]

[QUOTE=Roland da Thompson Gunner] So did Al Qaida in the 80's when they were on "our side"[/QUOTE]

I hate when people say that. :mad: There was no such thing as Al Qaida or the Taliban in the 80s.

[Urban Saboteur]

[QUOTE=jcast]I hate when people say that. :mad: There was no such thing as Al Qaida or the Taliban in the 80s.[/QUOTE]

No such thing? :confused:
does that mean they didn't exist.. or wernt alive then?

[ToneGunsRevisited]

Let me state what I know about criminals. They don't do it for living, they do it for power. They all want the adrenalin of the action as well as the power to be a bad guy. Nowadays, a bandit, drug dealer has an status and they like it. They are some kind of paralel power and they havetheir own rules to regulate their relations ship. Somali good people is trying to make their life better, the ones in the ship are just stupid bandits trying to get power.

Power isn't the solution, education is. BUT to have a breath moment to begin education you need to use the power. Here in the shanty towns we have the proof of it. Look at Hulk 2 movie. Part of it was run into a real brazilian shanty town, but the one under the eyes of the BOPE (a special police at Rio de Janeiro). With brute force and extensive operations they've the place now under control. Movies, novelas and series can be filmed there w/o fear. In counterpart, there are shanty towns that police still need armored cars to go inside. Once they have cart blanch to do as they did on the first one, the other places will be in line. However the false defensors of human rights have to step aside and let the men do their jobs.

Human rights are for humans. Pirates that are stoping men/women from their work, separating mothers and fathers from their childrens aren't human. Look at a highschool fight. First to stop the two young guys there you need force to get them separate, after that a talk and a lot of conversations can solve it and further prevent a new fight. But always in the first moment you need the brute force.

[jcast]

[QUOTE=Urban Saboteur]No such thing? :confused:
does that mean they didn't exist.. or wernt alive then?[/QUOTE]
Neither group existed as such in the 80s. The Taliban formed in 1995. Al Qaida is a bit murkier, but it really came togther as a group in the late 1990s.

[vader9900]

[QUOTE=jcast]Neither group existed as such in the 80s. The Taliban formed in 1995. Al Qaida is a bit murkier, but it really came togther as a group in the late 1990s.[/QUOTE]
The organization name is different, but the players are the same.

[jcast]

[QUOTE=vader9900]The organization name is different, but the players are the same.[/QUOTE]

How so?

[vader9900]

Bin Laden and the Mujahideen was funded and armed by the CIA in the 80s, to fight the Soviets. Ronald Reagan praised them as freedom fighters. These exact same people are todays Taliban. So the Taliban was around in the 80's, it just was not called that until 1994.

[Urban Saboteur]

[QUOTE=vader9900]Bin Laden and the Mujahideen was funded and armed by the CIA in the 80s, to fight the Soviets. Ronald Reagan praised them as freedom fighters. These exact same people are todays Taliban. So the Taliban was around in the 80's, it just was not called that until 1994.[/QUOTE]

You said it way better than I could.. but i'm thankfull someone pointed this out. :D
I actually couldnt remember the name of them.. mujahideen.. it's not a name that I come across on a regular basis.

[jcast]

[QUOTE=vader9900]Bin Laden and the Mujahideen was funded and armed by the CIA in the 80s, to fight the Soviets. Ronald Reagan praised them as freedom fighters. These exact same people are todays Taliban. So the Taliban was around in the 80's, it just was not called that until 1994.[/QUOTE]

The main people responsible for the rise of the fundamentalists were the Pakistani ISI. The Taliban were not supported by Reagan, as the Soviets left in 1989 and the Taliban emerged in 1995 in the Madrassas of Pakistan. Most of those people were supported by Pakistan, not the US. It's popular to say that the US abandoned Afghanistan, but there wasn't a government for us to support. The factions that fought the Soviets turned on each other after the USSR pulled out. This is what allowed the Taliban (supported by the ISI) to take over. When they did, they forced a lot of the older Mujahideen into exile or into the ranks of the Northern Alliance.

[vader9900]

Read what I wrote - I said Reagan praised them for being Freedom Fighters. The CIA as well a Pakistani Intelligence armed, funded & trained them in the 80's - this is something the US Governments has not denied. Do a little more homework, the freedom fighters of the 80's are the SAME people as the Taliban of the 90s. I guess the next thing you will say is that the US did not support Saddam Hussein & Iraq in the Iran - Iraq War!

[jcast]

[QUOTE=vader9900]Read what I wrote - I said Reagan praised them for being Freedom Fighters. The CIA as well a Pakistani Intelligence armed, funded & trained them in the 80's - this is something the US Governments has not denied. Do a little more homework, the freedom fighters of the 80's are the SAME people as the Taliban of the 90s. I guess the next thing you will say is that the US did not support Saddam Hussein & Iraq in the Iran - Iraq War![/QUOTE]

Ok, You are wrong. Most of them are not the same. Abdul Hak never joined the Taliban. Massoud never joined the Taliban. Gulbidden Hekmetyer never joined the Taliban. The Taliban was created in Pakistani Madrassas about 6 years after the Soviets left. Most of the people we supported wound up fighting the Taliban in the Northern Alliance, before 9/11 and our ops there.

I guess you forgot about the Iran Contra scandal where we happened to sell weapons to Iran.

[vader9900]

[QUOTE=jcast]Ok, You are wrong. Most of them are not the same. Abdul Hak never joined the Taliban. Massoud never joined the Taliban. Gulbidden Hekmetyer never joined the Taliban. The Taliban was created in Pakistani Madrassas about 6 years after the Soviets left. Most of the people we supported wound up fighting the Taliban in the Northern Alliance, before 9/11 and our ops there.

I guess you forgot about the Iran Contra scandal where we happened to sell weapons to Iran.[/QUOTE]
So you are saying the US did not train & arm Bin Laden in the 80's? The Taliban is Pakistani, and none of the anti-Soviet Freedom Fighters are involved? The US did not support the Freedom Fighters in the 80s? The US did not support Iraq (and yes I remeber Iran / Contras)? I bet you voted for Bush & believe in WMDs! Put your head back in the sand, I'm out!

[jcast]

[QUOTE=vader9900]So you are saying the US did not train & arm Bin Laden in the 80's? The Taliban is Pakistani, and none of the anti-Soviet Freedom Fighters are involved? The US did not support the Freedom Fighters in the 80s? The US did not support Iraq (and yes I remeber Iran / Contras)? I bet you voted for Bush & believe in WMDs! Put your head back in the sand, I'm out![/QUOTE]

I'm sorry, but it really seems that you're picking out the parts of my post you don't like and making up the rest.