Off Topic - Anonymous Vs Scientology

[ender098]

Has anybody heard about this group that goes by the name anonymous? They are supposedly having some protest against Scientology March 10th (L. Ron Hubbards birthday) in which they sit outside Church buildings wearing the Guy Fawlkes Masks shown in V for Vendetta.

A friend of mine is going and wants me to go...I'm no fan of Scientology, but if I'm representing some group of internet terrorists or miscreants by attending this protest, forget it! I have no idea who this group is doing this or why.

What do you all think?


*GS* - I edited out my biased opinion of Said named religion! I didn't realize how harsh it sounded until you posted your reply! -Thanks!

[General Scarlett]

Let's remember to keep it civil on this one gang..........thanks. :cool:

[ender098]

Ah, good point. I don't want this to become a "bash Scientology thread". You are free to believe what you want to, whether I agree with it or not.

That's NOT what I'm trying to get a discussion going about. I just wanna know if anyone knows more about this "Anonymous" group and what they stand for? (Other than obviously being a thorn in Scientology's side)

[haradrel]

First I have ever heard of it, but then again I am across the world pond from you ;)

To me religion is the root of all evil (well ok, its not really that bad - but most wars are usually hidden behind ideologies and religion) , but people may believe in exactly what they want. As long as they don't spew it out on me, or try to convert me then I'm all for religion. - And this is just my opinion!

I would however not walk in a protest against any kind of religion, to me it kinda beats the point of having a free will and to be able to believe in whatever a person wants to believe in. Kudos to those who do believe in something! You have a much stronger faith in things then me! :)

[silentdusty]

This group "Anonymous" seems to have limited their attacks to internet, ie. hacking Scientology websites, protests, and "spam" attacks, e-mail, faxing black paper to use up their fax ink. No physical attacks have been made thus far.

That being said Frank, you are a member (still?) of the US military, who are supposed to uphold the rights and freedoms of your fellow countrymen and women. Freedom of Religion is one of those rights, and while you personally may not agree with Scientology, they have the right to practice their religion.

That being said, my personal opinion of this anonymous group, their attacks to me sound more sophmoric and childish than anything else. To quote the infamous Dennis Miller, "That's just my opinion, I could be wrong!"

[haradrel]

I think that might be an interesting line to walk.
On one hand he is a soldier and is protecting peoples right to have their own opinion about religion. On the other hand he himself has strong beliefs and one might be in total opposition of a religion.
Where is the line drawn? Is he vetoed from expressing his own thoughts and feelings on a subject because he is in the military?
Just some food for thought - I found this post a lot more interesting now actually. I have never heard about the Anonymous folks before now, sounds like they are choosing a passive aggressive way of dealing with something they don't agree with, childish as it may seem I'll bet its a nasty thorn in the side of the Scientology folks.

[Sonneilon]

Are you guys familiar with 4chan.org?

Buddy at work said that they are preparing to stage a big (annoying) demonstration outside the Scientology offices and whatnot. I've never visited the site, but it's been shut down several times by the law due to childporn and other problems. And yet, that seems like the hot spot these days. *shrug*

[yorktownjoe]

I have not marched in protest to ideas. Personally, I believe in Jesus, and He calmly shared His message with others. He never tried to force His message on others, but rather provided the message for people to accept or reject. I willfully chose to accept.

Followers of several religions and also "ideologies" who masquerade as religions (presumably for legal, tax or social purposes) have done some good and some very evil things through the course of history.

Jesus never did evil things. I'll follow Him, and let others make their own decisions on whether to accept or reject His message.

As for that particular group, I have never heard of them...

[ender098]

[QUOTE=haradrel]
I think that might be an interesting line to walk.
On one hand he is a soldier and is protecting peoples right to have their own opinion about religion. On the other hand he himself has strong beliefs and one might be in total opposition of a religion.
Where is the line drawn? Is he vetoed from expressing his own thoughts and feelings on a subject because he is in the military?
Just some food for thought - I found this post a lot more interesting now actually. I have never heard about the Anonymous folks before now, sounds like they are choosing a passive aggressive way of dealing with something they don't agree with, childish as it may seem I'll bet its a nasty thorn in the side of the Scientology folks.
[/QUOTE]


Yeah, it's funny I put my life on the line for freedom and democracy, but If I had gay friends, I couldn't support my friends by marching in a "Gay Pride" parade with them, because it would violate Marine Corps standards. But it's ok. As Gene Hackman said in Crimson Tide "Gentlemen, we're here to PROTECT democracy, NOT PRACTICE IT!" LOL. Yeah, it's one of the things you learn to live with being military. You give up certain freedoms and liberties to protect the nations freedoms and Liberties. I get a kick out of seeing protesters and my friends saying "Don't they tick you off?"

I just laugh and say "Nope, they show I'm still on the job!"

From what I'm reading, Anonymous started with some pretty vicious attacks (not violent, just denial of service internet stuff and the like), and then changed their tactics for fear Scientology would play the victim card. Like someone said on one of the sites "Sounds more like Sophmore kids playing a prank".

And maybe their non violent , yet outlandish style of protest may bring light upon some of the things the "Church" has been doing. It seems the Church goes after any website or authors who try to make them look bad. From the sound of it, Anonymous just wants the Church to leave the naysayers alone and allow their detracters to be able to speak their mind without fear of bullying tactics! Sounds like something I could get into! And what's it take? I just put on a "V for Vendetta" mask and stand around with a bunch of people on a street corner across from some office building! If that's it, I just might go! No harm done!

Believe it or not,my "Friend" is actually my 12 YO son. He heard about this first and wants to go! I think because he's a "V for Vendetta" fan more than he's really behind their cause! But who knows, as long as it's non violent and supports a good cause, who am I to deny him the right to express himself? Let him enjoy the freedoms we provide in this great country of ours!

[haradrel]

[QUOTE=yorktownjoe]I have not marched in protest to ideas. Personally, I believe in Jesus, and He calmly shared His message with others. He never tried to force His message on others, but rather provided the message for people to accept or reject. I willfully chose to accept.
[/QUOTE]

Jesus may not have tried to force his message, but his followers did - as a side note Christianity was brought to my country by the edge of a sword. You either went with the program or the head came off (this was the Viking era mind you).

When it comes to religion I think something said in the movie Dogma comes to mind. "All the religions on earth is close to it, but they all try to explain it" or somesuch, I am paraphrasing badly here, but the general gist was all religions have something to offer, they just try to explain it in human terms and thus get it wrong, the Idea is still right. (am I making any sense here? :confused: )

Anyhoo, as long as its a peaceful thing and you are 99.9% that nothing bad will happen then I don't really see the problem with standing there.

[yorktownjoe]

[QUOTE=haradrel]Jesus may not have tried to force his message, but his followers did - as a side note Christianity was brought to my country by the edge of a sword. You either went with the program or the head came off (this was the Viking era mind you).

[/QUOTE]

Historically accurate, but not absolute. I would say those who came to your country with the sword, were those I referenced as "holding an ideology and masquerading as a religion." People who are devoted to a cause, but who don't read the Bible, and then go violating the teachings of the Bible (like killing people), and saying they are spreading the Gospel, well... I think you see my point. Not so much would I term them "Christians." But my definition is probably tighter than most in the world today... I get your point as well. The Gospel came to the US with a little less "lopping" than it did in parts of Europe.

And things have changed for "most" organized religions since the Viking age. (Give or take a few notable ones who still use the sword method of conversion...eeek!)

What I love about freedom, is the ability to share a belief without worry of being jailed, injured or killed, so long as that belief doesn't cause direct harm to another person. In a lot of other countries, even some progressive ones, you are free to your opinion, as long as it is the official opinion of the state. Glad I don't live there!

And I have to pause now and thank Frank and his brothers who brought me that freedom, and keep it alive and well, day after day.

I thought this might digress into something ugly, but I'm glad we are civilized...And I thank Gen Scarlett for keeping us from forgetting to remain civilized. It is good to have civil and intellectual discussions about deeper matters than Joes with others who share our hobby!

[haradrel]

"It is good to have civil and intellectual discussions about deeper matters than Joes with others who share our hobby!"

Well technically its still about Joes, in their way they keep America a place where you can believe what you want, they are after all soldiers ;) :D

But yeah, falling into an argument about religion is about as productive as holding your hand over your head when its pouring down rain. Everybody has their own thoughts and feelings about it, and especially something loaded as religion which believers of any faith take very personally (which they should!).
Something that I see almost every time is that people forget that irony or sarcasm is harder to read then to hear when someone is talking about something, so discussions such as this tend to fall out because of some "off" comments. (Thus I usually over-use smileys/emoticons etc to show my mood/playfulness).
I am very thankful that people here are pretty aware of such things and go out of their way to keep this a nice place (and its nice for a change to be ruled by somewhat of an iron hand by GS ;) That is a compliment btw, not meant in any negative form, its good to see moderators take responsibility seriously! :) )

On a side not about the Christening (is that the word?) of Norway. The did do it by sword, but on the other hand they also brought the country together and made it almost what it is today. A few things that still is part of our culture is that you get initiated into the state church if you don't come from a family of a different belief system - which means you get born into it! You can always go out of it, but in the papers it says Christian even though you might not be. Other parts of our culture here is swearing is closely tied to Christianity (I won't mention examples, but its the usual about him up there and the other dude below there, the place below there etc.), and even non-Christians use those just because its such a big part of normal life here. Also its normal to be baptized and "confirmated" (I can't remember the English word here... Someone help me out) even though you might be a non-believer.

Alright enough of my blabbering! Most will probably scroll past this and go look at the pretty pictures instead (I know that is my next thing on my to-do list!) :D

[General Scarlett]

Way back in November of last year, I was involved in a thread on JBL entitled 'Godless'. It was started by a man who calls himself an atheist (in the most general terms)-initially, I believe, he started the thread to create controversy. But what ended up blooming was 7 pages and one month of some of the most interesting, thought provoking and educated responses from the entire spectrum of 'believers'.......

I'm going to copy and paste my own postings into this thread. You can all read them or pass them by. I will take no offense.

I applaud any person who believes in their personal code, as long as that code does not involve the infliction of pain and/or suffering and/or forcement of said personal beliefs on others........and I thank you all here for letting this thread begin as positively as you have.......I can only hope that it continues. Thank You.










The remainder of this post has been moved. Thank you.

[General Scarlett]

This post has been moved. Thank you.

[General Scarlett]

[QUOTE=haradrel]
..............................
Also its normal to be baptized and "confirmated" (I can't remember the English word here... Someone help me out) even though you might be a non-believer.
............
[/QUOTE]

Your closer than you think.......the word your looking for is 'Confirmed' stemming from 'Confirmation'....... :cool: :D

[haradrel]

A good read GS
And a far more eloquent way of saying my own thoughts on the subject matter ;)
Seems someone got it "right" ;)


Oh and thanks! I knew I was close, I just couldn't get it right in my head :rolleyes:

[General Scarlett]

[QUOTE=haradrel]A good read GS
And a far more eloquent way of saying my own thoughts on the subject matter ;)
Seems someone got it "right" ;)


Oh and thanks! I knew I was close, I just couldn't get it right in my head :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
:o :o :o :o
Thank you for you kind words.

[Sonneilon]

Personally, I'm not religious. But I have faith. Faith in life. Faith that events occur as they will. Faith that the universe will continue the way it will. I'm a bit more metaphysical than one that subscribes to western religion. And seeing how there are upwards of 5000 levels of Buddhism, I'm not going that route either.

[bluestalker88]

hey, just figured I would put my 2 cents in to this, basicly I have the same opinion of some of the many others on here such as GS and yorktownjoe. I have never heard of this group until Frank mentioned something, so if any one is interested in knowing more I looked them up on wikipedia.org and these are the links

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anonymous_%28group%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Chanology

oh and frank I wish you and your son the best and I hope its a good experience for the both of you

Nick

[LordRaven]

I don't know how comfortable I am about the pictures, GS. You have faith, good for you. I associate the church with child molesters and a church who sat by and did nothing during the holocaust. You can believe whatever you want, but I don't wanna come to my TOY site and see pictures of people whom I believe get away with murder and sins far greater than those of the people confessing. Let's keep the religion, and the giant ass posts about your experiences with God or Gas Leaks out please. Frank's post, asked a simple question, and some people ran the OPPOSITE direction and got rather defensive and had to tell thier life stories about God.
Believe in whatever you want, dance around with a dead chicken on your head singing the macarena if it makes you feel better, I just don't wanna have to deal with the feathers.

*Edit* Why should Frank have to edit his OPINION of the church? We're allowed opinions, you have yours about the Church saving you or whatever it is they do there, why can't he have his and make a tiny post about it?

[Sonneilon]

Just a reminder, the ORIGINAL topic was of some group trying to punk Scientology. This has gotten way off topic. IF you want to express your religious views, feel free to make your own post. But as Lord Raven has just stated, he isn't cool with things. This is not something that we will be fighting for. Bring it back on topic or it's getting locked down, period.

[fifthconspiracy]

I am going to have to agree with LordRaven's post on this one.

I didn't come here for religious lectures. No offense to GS in what you believe, that's your priority.

Frank - If nothing else, being part of a rally/protest is a way to show your son how freedom of expression works in the US and in Canada... and you are doing it together, so... have fun.

Cheers! ~ Paul.

[haradrel]

[QUOTE=Sonneilon]Just a reminder, the ORIGINAL topic was of some group trying to punk Scientology. This has gotten way off topic. [/QUOTE]

Just a random musing, wasn't this an "off topic" topic to begin with :confused:

Anyhoo, back on "off" topic (I can feel the universe imploding in my mind now :eek: )

"I just wanna know if anyone knows more about this "Anonymous" group and what they stand for? (Other than obviously being a thorn in Scientology's side)"

Did you get enough information about the group now? To me they seem to be non-violent and ok enough group to just stand there with. But whenever a child is in the picture people get a bit worried (which is very understandable). I have no idea what I would do in your situation, but I'd say go with your gut feeling!

[ender098]

Man, this was what I wanted to avoid was an all out debate on religion. I just basically wanted to know if you were in my shoes, would you let your son go to a demonstration like that?

I think I'm gonna cave and let him! If nothing else it will be fun to see a bunch of young kids out with Guy Fawlks masks on! LOL!

[ender098]

[QUOTE=LordRaven]
*Edit* Why should Frank have to edit his OPINION of the church? We're allowed opinions, you have yours about the Church saving you or whatever it is they do there, why can't he have his and make a tiny post about it?[/QUOTE]


Shane, no one asked me to edit my post. In the original, I bashed the scientologists, and when General Scarlett stated "keep it civil" I realized that by bashing a religion (ANY RELIGION) I opened this debate to the slippery slope of religion. That's NOT what I wanted. I just wanted to get everyone's opinion on this "Anonymous" group before I told my son he could go to support them! And STILL look what happened!

Shane, YOU of all people know how I bash religion,..." but arguing religion on the internet is like running in the special olympics...."

and I'll leave it at that!!

[haradrel]

wow you quote my sig in that last line there ;)
But its true.

anyhoodeliho, so you are letting him go?
Wishing you good luck all the way!

If I were in your shoes I would probably let him go if he really wanted, if it turns into something that it should'nt have been then hopefully he will learn from it (this is of course worst case scenario I'm talking about here).

[General Scarlett]

'Kay, I'm not getting into a whole debate here.

Shane, your opinion is yours, and you are entitled to it. But don't belittle my beliefs or my postings. That's rude and uncalled for. Labeling an entire religious belief based solely on media perspectives and pockets of ignorance and idiocracy is no way to go. I'm sorry that you feel the way you do, but that doesn't mean that the entire Christian following is evil. Hadarel, who professed himself 'against religious followings' was decent enough to thank me for presenting my feelings instead of jamming it down someone's throat. I would think you could afford me the same courtesy, especially considering all the conversations we've had.


As for Scientology, personally I think it's a joke and a cult. But I'll stop at that since I don't know any more about the sect. Nor do I wish to at this time.

Frank, sorry for hijacking the thread, but when Hadarel and Yorky posted up what they did, I just wanted to offer up my personal experiences. So I'm sorry.

If you send your son, just make sure that he knows not to agree to anything, sign anything or eat or drink anything...........but if you trust him, then that's alright with me.

[Stormer]

I kinda like the sound of Anonymous, from reading those wiki articles. Since there's no structure, even no identifiable membership body (hence the name) they come across like more of a subculture than an actual organisation. (Like you can be a goth, a punk, a hippie, etc. -- certain ideological similarities but no structure beyond anything that like-minded individuals organise amongst themselves).

I admit I don't know loads about Scientology, but that's in large part due to the obsessive control of information that the Church exerts regarding itself. It certainly does look like part of the reason they've been able to grow to the extent they have is that they've put an incredible amount of pressure on anyone attempting to examine them, let alone criticise. You don't find large-scale organisations addressing them because the Church will target the individuals responsible before the ball gets rolling, apparently.

So it seems the only way to make any kind of protest against Scientology is to do it anonymously, organised in this decentralised way. Even if there's nothing wrong with the Church, its practices on a psychological or financial level, it doesn't cast them in a very good light if they're so secretive and defensive anytime someone looks on them with a critical eye. Perhaps this kind of pressure will get them to finally answer some questions that the wider world has regarding them -- if they're as virtuous as they claim, surely they have nothing to worry about? Hell, might even win over more converts.

I'm automatically put into a negative mindset towards any religion that doesn't allow itself to be criticised -- how strong can a faith be if those using it daren't allow themselves or other followers to have it questioned?

I can appreciate what has been said regarding Frank's defense of Scientologists' right to practice their religion, but at the same time he's been protecting the freedom of others to voice their concerns. Kudos to you Frank, for that but especially for taking your son's request seriously and looking into the situation with this depth. He may have been attracted to it by the V For Vendetta connection initially, but I hope you've both been able to talk about the reasoning behind the event and those matters of freedoms. I think it's great if you're going to let him attend (go with him even, if only in a supervisory capacity?) and judging by the fact there have been multiple similar events already it does give the impression it'll be the peaceful protest it purports to be and therefore safe enough. After all, anyone attempting anything more drastic would risk losing their Anonymity, and the Scientologists aren't likely to do anything overt or physical as it'd be bad for their public image.

I might keep an eye on this and future developments, and maybe look out for anything planned wherever I am at the time...

[LordRaven]

My post was no way meant to belittle your religion. My post was about the fact Frank ased a question about something else, and you took over the thread with a page of your experiences with the Catholic Church. I'm uncomfortable with that. Your religion is your own, again, but I don't want to read about your life story with God. If this offends you, I should feel sorry, but I don't, because your post offends me.

[General Scarlett]

[QUOTE=LordRaven]My post was no way meant to belittle your religion. My post was about the fact Frank ased a question about something else, and you took over the thread with a page of your experiences with the Catholic Church. I'm uncomfortable with that. Your religion is your own, again, but I don't want to read about your life story with God. If this offends you, I should feel sorry, but I don't, because your post offends me.[/QUOTE]


Then I guess it a good thing that I labeled my posts '*WARNING PERSONAL BELIEFS*

AND that I inserted into it this disclaimer as well:

[QUOTE=General Scarlett]I'm going to copy and paste my own postings into this thread. You can all read them or pass them by. I will take no offense. [/QUOTE]


So you have only yourself to blame for getting up in arms over it.

I'm not going to debate this publically anymore with you. You have something you want to say to me, take it to a PM.

[ender098]

[size=4]************kids!!!*************


**********play Nice!!!***********[/size]

[LordRaven]

I wish I had a camera to take pictures of my Joes...