Duke vs Hawk

[Sonneilon]

I was fiddling around with my 25A Joes and there just something 'magical' about the Original 13 compared to those that came after. Maybe it's because when GI Joe started for a lot of us, it was 13 guys, period. New members just trickled in after that, didn't get another huge batch like we did. Maybe that's just it. When setting the figures up, I literally have Duke on one side and Hawk on the other. And in a way, it suddenly felt like the relationship Cobra Commander had with Serpentor. ie; who is the real boss?

Now, if we ignore the cartoon for now... You guys think that some Joes will be more loyal to Duke and that some are more loyal to Hawk?

Like, the original 13, they all followed Hawk and Flagg. There was never any reaction when Duke took over and Roadblock ursurped the heavy gunner position. Certainly, there had to be some hard feelings. You can't tell me that everyone, in their heart, followed Duke just because they were told to. Human nature, y'know?

What about the guys who came after Duke was introduced? Did they want really want to follow an old fart like Hawk?

I was just curious as to any thoughts and feelings on this.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v474/Sonneilon/25AJoesCollection.jpg
This is how I set them up. Wasn't really thinking, just went with what felt natural. Weird, eh?

[Self-Modifier]

This is an interesting idea. While I'm sure the Joes show loyalty to both commanders, I could see certain ones having specific allegiances. In particular, as you said, the original 13 probably have a particular affinity for Hawk, and I would imagine most of the '83 recruits (Gung-Ho, Doc, Torpedo, etc.) would feel the same way.

Joes I could see as having a special allegiance to Duke would be Roadblock (showed up with him in his first appearance and they were virtually inseparable for a long time after), Flint (his filecard says he used to serve with Duke, and his first appearance in the comic specifies that Duke recruited him to the Joes), Lady Jaye (they just always seemed to get along well), and most of the 84-85 cast who joined while Duke was the acting field commander. In 1986, Hawk was promoted and put himself back in the field, so I'd imagine most post-86 characters would follow Hawk and Duke equally since they were sharing field command duties at this point.

Of course, the above is all based on the comics. In the cartoon, I'd imagine all pre-86 characters' loyalties would lie with Duke, who commanded them for three years before Hawk arrived. In particular, Scarlett (obviously), Snake-Eyes, and Gung-Ho seemed to have a very good rapport with Duke on the show.

My 25th Joes aren't really displayed in any sort of "factions" though. I have a front row consisting of Duke, Hawk, Flint, and Lady Jaye, a second row with Timber, Scarlett, Snake-Eyes, Stalker, and Gung-Ho, a third row with Beachhead and Shipwreck, and fourth row featuring Roadblock and his machine gun.

(But wait-- Where are Flash and Snow-Job standing, you ask? Don't ask me! Ask Hasbro's idiotic distribution department!)

[sgcaper]

I concur with a lot of what Self-Modifier said about the Joes loyalty, basically to the letter. With the cartoon out of the picture I'd say the originals were most loyal to Hawk etc etc. I do think that after Duke displayed real leadership abilities and worked well with Hawk that there came a point when Joes were just Joes following orders. I know what it's like to serve with someone only to have a new guy come in and there is a lot of resentment but one good firefight cures that.

[Lava Boss]

I jokingly had the idea that Tiger Force was Duke and his loyal followers trying to usurp General Hawk and his flunkies. But you know, violent power struggles don't really work amongst good guys, especially the US military. Not sure where Sgt. Slaughter fits in...maybe he's Hawk's enforcer...since the Sarge was sort of Duke's replacement in the toy line as "corporate champion" (until Slaughter was phased out by 1991).

That's why so many 1986 characters are redundant...Hawk couldn't trust most of the old crew anymore. :p

New members just trickled in after that, didn't get another huge batch like we did. Maybe that's just it

1985 was a lot of new joes, some 10 carded (plus a new Snake-Eyes, but he wasn't a new character) and 5 vehicle drivers (most of whom were very underused in all media). The cartoon gave the carded figures a lot of exposure. Some later fans, especially cartoon fans, probably consider most of them to the iconic team more than the 1982 batch. The 1982 crop hardly appears on the toon after the first 2 mini-serials (mini-serieses?), the big exception being Scarlett, of course.


1990 was solid new characters (ignoring Sonic Fighters, which IMHO were part of the 1991 series). But we only had Dic's toon to characterize those Joes.

[Captain Max]

Soldiers OBEY those people who are set in rightful authority,but they FOLLOW those people whom they believe will keep them alive.

So I think Hawk and Duke will be respected AND Followed by all the Joes.

Liking or disliking.........some of each.

[Sonneilon]

I figure in #16 when Hawk got shot in the back, the Joes had a fit! Duke never got shot up nor did he ever go toe-to-toe with an actual bad guy for most of Marvel's run (well, at least thru the Cobra War). Maybe that would make people more interested in following him with their hearts. And certainly in the early issues of AE, people weren't overly cool with him.

So you notice in the shot that SE & Scar are way off to the side with Stormy, the outcast in the way back. (the other SE and Scar are extras) You got Gung Ho, Roadblock and Shipwreck who are rather impartial and well what is needed. Don't ask why Beach Head is over near Hawk. It always seemed that both Hawk and Beachy were no-nonsense guys so they tend to be more of a threat than Duke alone. *shrug*

[Stormer]

Going by the comics, Duke didn't really do all that much at Marvel. He was introduced with Roadblock in quite a grandstanding way, then just kinda hung around before Flint came in and took more focus as a team higher-up with some character. Then Duke popped up during the war in Trucial Abysmia and lots of the Joes in his direct command got killed...

I'd say Flint probably does have some loyalty to Duke what with their shared history (or should that be the other way around since Flint outranks Duke?) but in terms of depictions of Joes in the field, Stalker did quite a lot of lower-tier leadership and he was also often portrayed as Hawk's right hand man.

Come DDP and their blending of comic and cartoon sensibilities, Duke got portrayed in a lot more prominent position than purely his Marvel appearances would lead one to expect. All the Joes were looking up to him and had apparent fondness for him as a teammate, commander and friend but at the same time he had his black ops stuff that set him apart from them somewhat. I know he was at the forefront of everything right through the series but I don't remember him doing anything in particular that wouldn't have been handled by anyone else who was there... Then in America's Elite he just upped and left to pursue his own agenda, not telling his CO or his team where he was going or why, and if he hadn't happened to come back at just the right time to help out with the Phoenix Guard I doubt everyone would have quite as welcoming. Hawk may have been portrayed as getting a bit over-obsessed with Cobra Commander but a)He didn't pull away from the team to do it, in fact he was trying to get the team to go along with what he was saying even more, and b)He was absolutely right about it all.

I'd say that when push came to shove, most if not all of the Joes would side with Hawk if they had to, as he's been there longer, had more influence over the shape of the unit, has sacrificed a considerable amount for all of them and hasn't just run off to play Action Man leaving the people who trust and rely on him wondering what his problem is...

[quintonarledge]

Soldiers will follow the chain of command and their orders as given.
I'm sure all the Joes have great respect for both Duke and Hawk. But, usually, most soldiers admire their NCO (Duke) the most rather than a guy that is really high up on the ladder.

[Outrider]

Hawk, O8, Duke E8...say no more! ;)

[Graz73]

When I was a kid, I remember the whole Duke/Hawk controversy. The comics had been around longer, so I liked Hawk. Soon the cartoon came out and suddenly Duke shows up. They were very similar looking characters so I assumed they just changed Hawk's name for no good reason.

BUT, Duke joined the Comic's team in a very grandstanding way and said he was "Taking charge". This really turned me off to the character. He seemed like a slightly suspicious showboating outsider trying to interfere in Hawk's already successful team.

This disconnect between Cartoon Duke and Comic Duke always made him annoy me. Although Optimus Prime is loved by most transformers fans, Duke is far less widely supported.

As years have passed though, my opinion has changed. Where he might have once been this outsider in 84... over 20 years on the "team" still makes him one of the ranking veterans no matter how you look at it.

As far as loyalty... Might the other Officers prefer Hawk to Duke? Would officers like Flint, Psych-Out, or Ace be happy taking orders from an Enlised Man?

[Lava Boss]

Hama disliked Duke, but had to use him. Hama said that the CO is the good cop (Hawk) and the top kick is a bad cop (Duke). (Is that right?)

So if the comic protrayal of Duke made fans dislike Duke, it was more or less intentional.

[silentdusty]

I look at it like this, Hawk is the CO, he looks after his people, he's not afraid to lead them into battle, therefore he has the love and respect of his troops, but he's still the CO. Duke is the top kick, the first sergeant so he has the most "interaction" with the troops, and leads them into battle "on the ground" and they probably respect him for that, though I don't think all of them like him. Flint, Torpedo, Lt. Falcon all out rank Duke, and probably just lead teams for specific missions.

In all honestly, rank doesn't seem to mean much in the Joe verse, I've seen Scarlett order Beachhead around, when technically he out ranks her, and that is just one example, so essentially, it's more about what works for a specific writers story whether it be comic or cartoon, not about actual rank.

That's just my opinion, I could be wrong. :)

[Swindle]

Just say no to a GIJoe Civil War!

[DaveCW2]

Man, and here I thought the debate was always "Duke vs. Flint".

I wish I could add something intelligent to this thread, but since Duke's always annoyed me, I'd say everyone gladly follows Hawk over the good Sergeant Hauser :D

Have fun!!!

[vader9900]

[QUOTE=DaveCW2]Duke's always annoyed me, I'd say everyone gladly follows Hawk over the good Sergeant Hauser[/QUOTE]
Absolutely

[General Scarlett]

You guys overthink this waaaaaaaaaaaay too much..........

Who gives a good rat's @$$.......

[Swindle]

The Joes follow the US Prez anyway.

[vader9900]

[QUOTE=General Scarlett]You guys overthink this waaaaaaaaaaaay too much..........

Who gives a good rat's @$$.......[/QUOTE]
Come on GS, we know your vote is for DUKE! :p

[DaveCW2]

[QUOTE=vader9900]Come on GS, we know your vote is for DUKE! :p[/QUOTE]
What's this, ladies and gentlemen? Do I smell a... wait... wait... yup... yup, it's official: that was a BUUURN!!!

:D

[General Scarlett]

[QUOTE=DaveCW2]What's this, ladies and gentlemen? Do I smell a... wait... wait... yup... yup, it's official: that was a BUUURN!!!

:D[/QUOTE]


You really sure you wanna go there monkey boy???? :p

[vader9900]

[QUOTE=General Scarlett]You really sure you wanna go there monkey boy???? :p[/QUOTE]
Umm...I think THAT was a burn! :eek:

[DaveCW2]

Yeah, I got tore up REAL good!

Oddly enough, GS, you're not the ONLY one that's ever called me that :eek:

*scurries off to find a banana*

[General Scarlett]

[QUOTE=DaveCW2]Yeah, I got tore up REAL good!

Oddly enough, GS, you're not the ONLY one that's ever called me that :eek:

*scurries off to find a banana*[/QUOTE]


All in good lovin' fun m'man........... :cool:

[Prince Adam]

[QUOTE=General Scarlett]You guys overthink this waaaaaaaaaaaay too much..........

Who gives a good rat's @$$.......[/QUOTE]

damn, Woman! Tell it like it is! lol :D

I guess Hawk would get my vote. Although I use Beachhead more as my feild commander in both Joe-verses.