Facta non Verba or "Pick a side"

[ender098]

I've noticed something crusing cyber space and veiwing "Joe" boards from various sites. About 50% of "joe fans" are anti-war. Not just the current war we are involved in, but it's like as soon as something gets ugly overseas, they say things like "it's our own fault" or "we should just stay out of it" or something else along the lines that everything that the US does is wrong, and the only way we know how to react is force and violence.

It's their right to express themselves, and hold whatever opinions they want, but my question is...what scenarios do they have for their GI Joes? Do they change the name of the USS Flagg to the USS Rainbow Warrior? Does their GI Joe team surround the terrordrome and have a sit in? Is their commander General Ghandi?

War is an ugly thing, but in some cases, it becomes nesessary to step up and show people you mean business. And in a lot of cases, it's not clear who is at fault. In Iran for example, the Sha was the person we were dealing with. He was a bloody and brutal dictator, and when the people overthrew him, we were seen as his allies. But what if we had helped them overthrow the Sha? Wouldn't we been seen as invaders protecting our own interests...like we are in Iraq right now? It's not a world of simple black and white. We have to look at the situation as it stands NOW and adjust from there. Looking at what we did wrong is good, in that we try not to make the same mistakes again, but the truth of the matter is What's done is done and your only choice is to protect your interests at the moment. Then, try to help someone else. If you try to help others over acting in your best interests, you will end up being out of resources and your soceity in ruin. We constantly loan money to foreign countries...we send aid when disaster strikes...but when Katrina hit, how many countries sent us help and Aid?

Even in trying to help others, we have done wrong. We encouraged the Iraqis to overthrow Saddam in the 90's after the first Gulf war, and it got thousands killed. It comes down to this, no one ever avioded a war by sitting on the fence. No one ever ended a war by not participating. If someone is gonna hurt you, you have two choices, get them first, or take your chances that they're all talk! And we all saw by 9/11 that these people mean us harm!

The world is not black and white, but it eventaully comes down to which side are you on? And these individuals who constantly downtalk the US and claim that violence never solves anything yet play with war toys make about as much sense as racists who hate Jewish people and swear by the bible (being that the Bible states Jesus was Jewish). Why don't they play with teletubbies or Barbies? I never hear them arguing that Cobra had it's civil rights violated becasue they are a minority and the US was putting them down for that!

Maybe I'm over reacting....but when I was young, I remember this from latin;

FACTA NON VERBA = Actions not Words.

If the pen is mightier than the sword, why did all the scribes in losing medevial armies end up dead?


What are your thoughts? But only those who agree with me please!! (Just kidding!!)

[ToneGunsRevisited]

War to me is a nice think on a movie or when I'm playing with my Joes (which don't are necessary linked with US army, navy or Air Force). Aside of that, I'm the kind of "Peace & Love". I'll be very fast here. I don't agree with the wars that US is running right now. What most of the great world mind are saying right now is that US have no interests on catching terrorists, but the real reason is take the oil under their protection. To me as far as US don't try to come down here and start saing what are the rules, fine. I wouldn't like kick you ,my friend Frank, back to US :D.
I would live in a world were we could avoid bad people, but Frank showed something real here. The world isn't black & white and I need to learn that everywhere are good and bad people, at my work place, at my neighborhood, at JoeDios and so one. All the war discussion, who is right or wrong, always hide from us that many soldiers didn't ask to go and die for others (politicians). Poor soldier that think he is fighting for his childs, women, in the real they're fighting for others to get rich.
I was reading an interviwe from an AH-1 COBRA pilot from Vietnam War and he said that where he was based, they knew where the enemy hideout was and from where they were always shooting at choppers that were landing/taking off. But the orders were always clear about not to shoot in that direction, 'cuz the enemy hide themselfs inside a latex extraction place that was under Goodyear possession :eek: . He said many enemies snipers killed US soldiers from that direction and no reaction could be placed.
War is a very stupid way to solve a problem. Frank, Shane and Fantom showed me it. And if I know you right Frank, inisde, you think like me. No more war!
I always look at a war and think that my son could be there, no means or motives would justify the dead of my boy. You'll say, yes, but if terrorrits get your son. FBI and other agencies knew that something would happen in 2001, they could done something before. Preventive actions and not corrective actions. We need to work on gathering intelligence more and less on getting blood drawn.

[Lava Boss]

I thought most boards were so modded that anything so much as having a opinion on favorite color is grounds for banning.

So where'd you get those stats?

I had a longer response...but no. I'm not going there. I like first person shooters and army toys...but really never wanted to join the military or go to war. Fantasy vs. reality.

[lehsreh]

[COLOR=Red]short and sweet, they made the first move with 911. we reacted, who woldnt? sure we dont need to go to war with every country that we have a disagreement with, but when they take action, we must do the same or take the risk of being bullied on. as for desert storm, that was some time ago and i was still to you to really have an opinion on that. only thing i can say about it is that a friend of my uncles said that we had to go to war then because they wouldnt sell us their oil. i honestly dont remember what all happened to start desert storm, but i dont think it was because they did not want to sell their oil. if it was however, then i would say we were in the wrong there and i told him so. ill not go and read some history on it, instead ill wait til someone on here gives me the correct info. to reinnerate, when someone pushes us, we must take action against them even if it leads us down a road we would rather not travel. if something like another country not wanting to sell us land, oil, foods, etc etc, then it is their right even if their doing it out of spite. just my opinion on this matter, not all of us will agree and we should be able to accept everyones opinion.[/COLOR]

[Urban Saboteur]

[FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]My thoughts,
I dunno about the whole terrorism plots and the Iraq invasion.. they to me seem to be the worlds cake at the minute. Usually when the "war on terror" is brought up.. I can imagine many elders go like :rolleyes:
why.. because the war being fought is a different one from the war the elders fought back in 1914-18 and 1939-45.
It seems really sad.. primarily because after world war II we as mankind were meant to have learnt valuable lessons.. yet here we are in a modern age.. and yet we are still "spilling blood" as TG says, I was always told that actions do speak louder than words.. and I've always believed that in the "seize the day" quotations.. when a country cries out for help or aid.. we're more concerned in arming our forces than we are helping them.. all over the world people die from diseases and illnesses which most modern countries have control of.. yet they don't help..
back in the 80s or possibly earlier it was established that most 3rd world countries need help in things like food, water and structure to find their feet and begin to build a better place.. theres been countless charities set up.. and yet 20 years on.. the countries don't look any better and they are still crying for aid..
There are countries in Africa where small militant groups are the law and for tourists they are considered "no go areas".. why isn't another country stepping in to help them?

I also want to make a point that we the "global public" are fed information from the press.. radio, internet.. television news.. of how much of this released news that we are told is true? I'm not sure.. but I am sure of one thing..
it's nothing to do with religion.. as I am not a religious person.. I see all this potential across the world.. all this energy going to waste.. why?
Because we live in a world motivated by greed, disloyalty, corruption.. and dishonesty.. a world where man is self distructive.. and only helps others if they are to possibly gain from it..

There are many great people that exist on this earth.. most of them are "the unknown" they live day to day in existence helping others for the benefit of good feeling of having helped someone without getting anything back.. they don't do it because the bible tells them or they have belief in a great religion.. they do it because they are honest.. sincere.. and kind..

The war on terror is another "pawn" in a chess game of life.. when 9/11 happened.. it shook everyone and woke everyone up.. how real was it.. I don't know.. it's like Princess Diana.. it's like Pearl Harbour.. it's like everything thats happened throughout history.. everyone has conspiracy theories and everyone has their ideals and thoughts of who was behind it.. although this may be cynical of me.. I just dont think man as a race is capable of moving on after this date.. they aren't capable as whole community of helping each other.. its a shame because if we all helped each other.. and we all communicated that little bit better.. and all believed in each other that little bit more.. we'd realise we'd all get along that much better and .. just maybe make the world the place it should be..[/SIZE][/FONT]

[Blowtorch]

Desert Storm was because Iraq invaded our allies in Kuwait. At least that was the reason giving to me before I deployed there beside we only get 10% of our oil from them. We've gone to "war" for humanitary reason and for acts of terrorism. There are many reasons, and it's our right to either agree or disagree with it. I myself still feel the need to honor my oath to protect and defend to US even though I've been out of service for several years now. I don't have to like the man in the oval office, I'm just proud to have served my country.

[maxtype]

I've never been a pacifist myself..................only my health kept me out of the service. I happen not to like the current administration................but I don't want to pull the rug out from under our soldiers,sailors,Airmen,and Marines....


I wonder at times if we hadn't been so isolationist in the 1930's if we could of deterred war in Europe...............or more to the point,if a stronger response from us would of convinced the German High Command they were backing the wrong horse in one Adolph Hitler...........

[Outrider]

Well, no one could ever say war is a good thing, or that it should ever be the first course of action, but as far as I'm concerned, regrettably it is sometimes the only course of action, as abhorrent as it is. There was a good point made about the world not being black and white anymore. WWI and WWII were clear cut; the expansionist bad guys needed to be stopped and shown the error of their ways. Those wars had clear cut good and bad. they had borders and "rules" (if there is such a thing as "rules of war".) Obviously these parameters don't apply to the scenario we find our selves in today. History will eventually show whether the correct decisions were made over Afghanistan and Iraq, but having watched everything as it has happened, committing to fighting terrorism was the only option. If that meant taking war to the terrorists own countries, then so be it. What's that old saying?...The best form of defence is attack.
As most of you know, I'm not American. But Australia, along with Great Britain, is one of the US's firmest allies. We have committed troops to both Afghanistan and Iraq in support of the US forces, and I could not be prouder that Australia, as a small nation (population of only 20 million) is doing it's bit to fight for a cause I strongly believe in. I'm damn proud that our government, against popular opinion, stood up and said "count us in". I'm also proud to live in a country that values doing the right thing in trying to make the world a safer place for everyone, so that eventually war may be a thing of history (though I doubt that will ever be the case).
The other thing is to explore the our options. Do you think terrorists are willing to sit down and talk about things? Do you think they are happy with anything other than the total destruction of the West, and of democracy? Of course not. The world for these radicals is black and white, and that's where the problem begins. For them it's domination or death, and I for one certainly won't let them dominate. They made the choice, now they can suffer the consequences.

[maxtype]

Outrider,first-you are right,Australia has been and is a very strong,committed ally in our military ventures-I didn't say AD-ventures!!-and America appreciates you!!!

I agree as well,terror groups are NOT going to sit with us and talk peace......they have already issued their ultimatum....if ALL the peoples of the world become Muslim,the terror ends..............supposedly.

I have no beef with Mr. & Mrs. Muslim Person..who are just as much victims of these terrorists as any.............but I'm NOT EVER going to change my faith by demand or ultimatum!!!

[Outrider]

[QUOTE=maxtype]..but I'm NOT EVER going to change my faith by demand or ultimatum!!![/QUOTE]

You said it brother!

[ender098]

[QUOTE=maxtype]


they(the terror groups) have already issued their ultimatum....if ALL the peoples of the world become Muslim,the terror ends..............supposedly.

[/QUOTE]

I find it funny that they say that when Sunni and Shiite are killing more of each other than they are infidels!

Another thing I hate is when most people in the middle east want peace, but they are afriad to fight for it....(kinda reminds you of that old Vietnam saying "fighting for peace is like [CENSORED] for viginity") but it's true.....the good people want peace but are afriad to put their lives on the line to achieve it. All Evil needs to succeed is for good men to do nothing....and that's what's happening in the Middle East.

But the question I Originally posted this thread for remains unanswered and undiscussed;

If these "peaceniks" are so against war, why do they play with Toy Soldiers? (and what do they play?)

[C-GDSM 2487]

[QUOTE=Blowtorch]Desert Storm was because Iraq invaded our allies in Kuwait. At least that was the reason giving to me before I deployed there beside we only get 10% of our oil from them. We've gone to "war" for humanitary reason and for acts of terrorism. There are many reasons, and it's our right to either agree or disagree with it. I myself still feel the need to honor my oath to protect and defend to US even though I've been out of service for several years now. I don't have to like the man in the oval office, I'm just proud to have served my country.[/QUOTE]

I have to agree with what you say on this subject blow torch
i am proud to serve in my regiment and country <great britain>

[lehsreh]

[QUOTE=ender098]
But the question I Originally posted this thread for remains unanswered and undiscussed;

If these "peaceniks" are so against war, why do they play with Toy Soldiers? (and what do they play?)[/QUOTE]
[COLOR=Red]
yeah, i guess we all just went in to what we thought and didnt even try to answer this. truth is no one can say why any other person does what they do. i can say this. as a kid i hated war movies, i mean i hated them with a passion. however, i still loved to play joes. to me and my friends, it wasnt the killing or war aspect, it was the building, the setting up, the creating that we did hours on end before the 15 minutes of conflict. so maybe thats their reason too. they played with joes as kids, not really understanding the war and killing concept. as they grew into adulthood they began to understand death and thought it was wrong, not wanting anything whatsoever to do with it. maybe they have become pure pacifist, but like many of us collect action figures because it makes us feel young again and takes us back to when our friend were still friends and actually spent time with you when they didnt need anything from you.

ok, now theres my personal thought, now heres my thought of me learnings from my psychology studies. deep down we all have suppressed feelings, emotions and urges.. one of these, which most dont like to admit is the want for power, to be in control, to dominate. you can take this back as far as you want, its the alpha male cliche. perhaps this is a way for the pacifist to fulfill this urge. like so many of us who dont want to kill or just go out and pick a fight when we need to quench the urge, we just pick up a toy, write a story, draw a picture or have a daydream. its just a way to do what our ego pushes us to do without breaking any laws, hurting anyone or doing something we know is really wrong. just my 2 cents worth.[/COLOR]

[Outrider]

[QUOTE=ender098]But the question I Originally posted this thread for remains unanswered and undiscussed;

If these "peaceniks" are so against war, why do they play with Toy Soldiers? (and what do they play?)[/QUOTE]

Sorry to have missed answering that one Frank. I don't know, you'd have to ask them... :confused:

[ToneGunsRevisited]

[QUOTE=ender098]But the question I Originally posted this thread for remains unanswered and undiscussed;

If these "peaceniks" are so against war, why do they play with Toy Soldiers? (and what do they play?)[/QUOTE]
I look to the world trought the vision of a teacher, 'cuz I'm a teacher. Being so I've to tell you that we use our imagination to play, to live and to taste things that sometimes we don't want for the real life. Playing war is nice, fighting a war you go against all the self protection feelings that you have.
I used to play Police vs Bad Guys, I played like Police, like a thief, but that doesn't mean that playing like a thief you'll become or you've to like be a thief or a police. It is just a toy game. All that is to make my point, that playing war is just a game, not a intention to be in war. A game is a game, like a movie. It's just a movie, doesn't mean that the actors of Band of Brothers need to like war. Or when you watch The Mummy, horror movie, that Brandon Fraser need to believe in mummy.
A game is just game.

[Stormer]

I was writing something that was gonna be even more huge and make everyone think I'm a heck of a lot more seriously political than I am, so I deleted it. That said, I never can keep things brief and have a history of coming across as way more strongly-opinionated than I really am...!

I do just have to say that 9/11 and the invasion/occupation of Iraq are not a "they started it" situation. It's true that potential support to Al-Qaeda and/or other anti-American bodies was one of the justifications the US administration gave for taking action when it did, but the main reason (and what got the UN to sign off on the use of force to protect international security) was the whole WMD thing -- the Iraqi administration was actively developing, or seeking to develop, weapons that (judging by the administration's track record of genocide, invasion, etc) would more than likely have been used on its own people as well as anyone else it wished to oppose.

I may find the timing a bit dodgy (like, why not sooner!) and I'm saddened by the political and social mess that's resulted, but I totally believe Saddam deserved what he got. I don't see that as any kind of resolution/retribution for 9/11 though and I'm still hoping to see Osama apprehended any day now...

I have mixed feelings towards war in general -- I won't say that war won't solve anything, as I do think there are situations where only the application of force will bring about a resolution. As for fighting myself, while I do like the idea of training to master violence (I liked what Storm Shadow was saying when he was training Billy...) I've never had any desire to join the armed forces. I don't really have a patriotic spirit (don't even want to live in my home nation...!) that would get me to go anywhere else to fight on behalf of my country. If everything I knew, loved and held dear were being actively attacked as it was 60 years ago I'd probably feel differently but right now I'd be too questioning of who was actually telling me who to fight, and why. Trying to draw a distinction or links between the actuality and ideal that is my country, and the people who are just in a position of power enabling them to send people to fight to the possible benefit of political & economic agendas which aren't necessarily anything to do with the ideal I want to support. Fighting to stop those who commit human rights violations, general "good versus evil," could motivate me but I do see too much grey in what does & doesn't actually happen (why fight supposedly for that sort of thing in oil-rich countries when there are always reports of atrocities in African nations where nobody intervenes?). Maybe if the UN had armed forces I could join without needing to join Britain's...

I think that's the appeal of GI Joe -- the enemy is outright evil with its own selfish agenda, you can completely justify fighting Cobra when they're a military force performing acts only an opposing force could counteract. And as lehsreh and TG said, the fantasy of the conflict, in imagining and re-enacting it through play, can be a way to vent the violent feelings we all get in a safe way. I bet if things could be as clear-cut as the fantasy of GI Joe, a lot more of the anti-war crowd would want to pick up a gun and try to get a shot at the guy with the blue rag on his head...

[ew3smiley1996]

this is something that i wrote a while agao and i thought it may be helpful. and i live in and am part of the New Jersey National Guard. So finding out earlier this week that 6 people were arrested for plotting to go to the gates of Fort Dix and just start killing as many service members as they could again brought this home for me since i did 2 1/2yrs as gate guard at Fort Dix. so you can think what you like but it doesn't matter if you have anything against your neighbor he may have been brought up to hate you and hide it until they are told to strike. This story was posted on yahoo so it can be found.

But this is a blog i wrote while just getting fed up with different people blaming the military for not acting or acting to much. just let me know what your feelings are on this.

I am not big on writing or spelling, but i just want to put this out there. To all the people who say no to the few people anymore who wish to enlist in the military, just think on this. Yes those who serve can be sent into harms way, and in todays society probalbly will. But there are benefits as well as risk. I can say that after getting off active duty in '96 that the pay has gone up alot, not to mention the health, room and board. there is also the educational aspects such as knowing you will be the one paying for any college yourself and not relying on anyone to support you, and also the great technical training ina wide area of jobs. and for those that like to travel in 4 yrs i went through 11 time zones without paying a cent.

now i won't sugar coat it, the service can be very tough no matter how strong or independent you may be. i followed my father's advice for boot camp which is the toughest part. believe nothing of what you hear and only about 10% of what you see, and do what you are ordered to do.

just know these are my thoughts, and just remeber the next time people are complaining about not getting help right away when its needed. ask yourself this have i ever volunteered for anything, and not just the military. (ex- first aid squads, fire departments, neighborhood watches, red cross, or any group to help others). now i know people don't want to think about this but how long can we go if no new people are elisting before the draft is re-enstated.

[Blowtorch]

As I'm reading the different opinions here (BTW none of them are wrong) I realize that we all would rather have peace, but it won't happen because we all have different opinions, beliefs and whatever else. So instead of respecting and forgiving each other and co-exisiting we fight, argue, name call and basically show our hatred. It's funny that we are the superior beings.....maybe we should take a few lessons from some lower rungs of the evolution ladder....


http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p278/Blowtorch_album/DSCF3855.jpg
My dog and cat who haven't figured out they shouldn't be doing this, but rather chase each other. BTW the cat does this with our 90lb pit bull also.

[yorktownjoe]

Nice picture Blowtorch!

First off, war is sometimes a necessary evil. Better war, than living in oppression or fear. And I'm thankful for those serving and who have served.

Since Frank's question dealt with how those with various viewpoints use their Joes, I had to think for a few moments. Me, pretty much for escape. But there are valid points to the psychological release of things we can't release in real life. Or at least we can't release in our present context in society. I'm afraid that my views would be somewhat less than politically correct in today's soft America. In WWII, the Allied forces did not concern themselves with the fact that enemies hid and fought in cathedrals or ancient historical buildings. There were bad guys inside. The bad guys had to die. There was collateral damage to buildings, and sometimes to innocent people who were in harm's way. This did not deter from the primary focus. The bad guys were no longer alive to fight tomorrow.

Unfortunately, we spend billions of dollars worrying about perception, when we will be hated regardless of what we do. If we give humanitarian aid, war-lords steal it. If we fight the war-lords, we are only making way for the second place war-lords to rise up. And lackeys of the first will still fight against us and the second place war-lords. Can't have peace with wackos with guns running around. Can't make peace with wackos who are willing to blow up themselves and others.

Someone needs to find bad guys wherever they are and K-I-L-L them. I equate bad guys as those who would willfully do harm to others simply because their viewpoint is different and who idealize their hatred, but mask it in the form or religious or political views. This seems like a job for a nimble, daring, highly-trained special missions force. It's purpose: To defend human freedom against _________, a ruthless terrorist organization, determined to rule the world.

Back to psychology, and the original question:

My 6 year old always has Joes and Cobras shooting at each other or people getting run over by tanks, etc.

My 3 1/2 year old has them talk to each other: "Hi, How are you doing?" "I'm fine." "That's good. Well have a good day!"

Is it insight into their personality? Is it just their age? I'm not sure. All I know is GI Joe is different for different people, and that's okay. I know the world would be better if everyone spent more time playing and less time killing, or having to hunt down those who would oppress us, or those who would make us live in fear.

I'm happy to see so many who have thought through this to a conclusion. Nice thread!

[Lava Boss]

but I'm NOT EVER going to change my faith by demand or ultimatum!!!

Yeah, that what I said, too,...when I lived in the Bible Belt.

Not all religious extremists are foreign or Muslim.

I've lost touch with the political spectrum in the USA, when one side calls the others "Nazis" and the other side call them "traitors"...it just comes across as hate-mongering to me. Everything is so much propaganda, too. I'm doubting whether or not I would vote in the 2008 elections. A political science teacher I had said "if you don't like the candidates, don't vote for any of them". And he was a democrat, who was dismissive of 3rd parties.

[General Scarlett]

You know, I want to give you guys a woman's point of view...........