When Did GI Joe "Jump the Shark"?

[ender098]

I was reading an article the other day and it claimed a show had "Jumped the Shark". I had NO CLUE what this meant, so being inquisitive, I looked it up! I looked it up and found out in Hollywood they use that term to denote when a show has hit it's peak and begins it's downhill slide (getting boring, monotonous, hard to believe or suffering from lack of creativity from the writers and totally breaks from canon........sort of like how BattleStar Galactica has for me lately!) Anyway......

As Far As the First run Marvel Comics run went, when did the comic "Jump the Shark" in your opinion? For me it was when they mirrored Desert Storm in Aberrjan or Trucial Albismia (or whatever tha place was) and killed off BF2000, Doc, Breaker, CrankCase, etc.

Although come to think of it, BF2000 sort of marked the jumping of the Shark!

(Jumping the Shark came from the Happy Days Episode when Fonzie jumped a Shark on Water skis, that episode was so hard to swallow it marked the departure of a lot of fans and began the phrase "Jump the Shark")

What do you think.......discuss.......

[Sonneilon]

Just after the Cobra War for me.

[lehsreh]

[COLOR=Red]i would have to agree. shortly after the war, i like the issues where spirit and mutt were in the town, and where clutch and rock n roll were caught. and a few others after that. but it wasnt long after the war that it started being G.I. Snake Eyes. no, no, i know the exact time, it was the start of the ninja force and/or the transformers crossover. and i was a wannabe ninja at the time *sigh*[/COLOR]

[Stormer]

As much as I like the Transformers and was okay with the concept of a crossover, those issues just got daft. Cobra Commander was spouting ten-dollar words for comic relief, 2 out of 3 lines from any Cobra character/trooper was a joke or at least tongue-in-cheek (I know there was always humor but I'm sure it used to be more balanced), Dr. Mindbender returned as a clone, the plot with Scarlett in Cobra as a double agent was just abandoned when Megatron showed up...

I'd say that was the right-over-the-shark moment, with Firefly & his Zombified Ninjas being the run-up. At least that had consistent art from Wildman & Baskerville; when Megatron arrived they left and we had a different artist every issue for ages, often multiple artists in a single issue! And of course, the ludicrous "starring SNAKE EYES" on the cover...

Toys, it was probably Eco-Warriors. If not, DEFINITELY Armor-Tech.

[Sonneilon]

Wasn't RnR and Clutch kidnapped and brainwashed? Or they were kidnapped by brainwashed people? I remember something that involved kids and that was the point where I was saying, "WTF? Did this just become Ghostbusters? What's with the kids?" I thought the art went downhill too which really soured me to things.

[lehsreh]

[QUOTE=Sonneilon]Wasn't RnR and Clutch kidnapped and brainwashed? Or they were kidnapped by brainwashed people? I remember something that involved kids and that was the point where I was saying, "WTF? Did this just become Ghostbusters? What's with the kids?" I thought the art went downhill too which really soured me to things.[/QUOTE]

[COLOR=Red]
clutch and r&r were caught by the dreadnoks at the new cobra town, broca beach and were brainwashed into not remembering where it was. and into makeing them killing machines, which did not work, remember the 2 girls who found the joe base.[/COLOR]

[Jay]

To me, GIJoe REALLY jumped the shark when Firefly was revealed to be the "Faceless Master". Before, the comic did have some "miss" issues but the overall quality was still very good. However, after the "Firefly is back and is a ninja master!" segment, the entire quality of the comic just dropped and remained low until the final issue.

[Self-Modifier]

As much as I like most of the late issues for the drama and soap-operatics, I do have to admit that the jump-the-shark moment was probably with the intro of Ninja Force.



...You don't know hard that is to say, considering how much I love Slice.

[General Scarlett]

For me, the series 'jumped' when they started introducing characters that really had no sensible purpose. Instead of trying to re-invent the chemistry that was already there, they killed characters & replaced them with 'hip new ones'......

[snakeeater]

I reread the entire series about 1 1/2 years ago, and I could feel the quality drop out of the comic as soon as Nunchuck, Dojo, and T'Jbang showed up in issue #117. So Ninja Force pretty much did it for me too. It seemed the comic put a lot of emphasis on these completely boring characters, likely to cash in on Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles popularity. They even made Zartan look like Bebop when wave 2 came out, orange mohawk? If the toyline had last another year, we would have seen a Ninja Commando Roadpig, I guess he would be a Ninja Force Rocksteady.

[Self-Modifier]

[QUOTE=snakeeater]I reread the entire series about 1 1/2 years ago, and I could feel the quality drop out of the comic as soon as Nunchuck, Dojo, and T'Jbang showed up in issue #117. So Ninja Force pretty much did it for me too. It seemed the comic put a lot of emphasis on these completely boring characters, likely to cash in on Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles popularity. They even made Zartan look like Bebop when wave 2 came out, orange mohawk? If the toyline had last another year, we would have seen a Ninja Commando Roadpig, I guess he would be a Ninja Force Rocksteady.[/QUOTE]

Recall that in one of the early Ninja Force appearances, Dojo actually asks Storm Shadow if Ninja Force has a cool battlecry like "Yo Joe" or "Cowabunga"...

[lehsreh]

[COLOR=Red]it seems for the most part we all agree, snake eyes and the ninja force killed G.I. Joe. i havent read any new comics in the last 6 to 8 months, is devil due doing the same mistake???[/COLOR]

[yorktownjoe]

Battle Force 2000 was a mistake, and killing them off did not atone for it. I stopped reading in the 120's, and I felt I had held on too long. Not only the stories, but the art began to suffer as well. I only recently read issues past 128. I still haven't seen 155, but folks say it was good.

Eco-Warriors... Mega-marines... hallucinagenic color schemes... alas, they all started drinking the same kool-aid that produced Golobulus.

The one thing I did really like was how B.A.T.s were portrayed as being nearly indestructible. In the cartoon, they are mowed down by the thousands. But in the comic, they fight on, and the broken pieces fight on, and the spare parts are recycled into new ones. Although not realistic, I did enjoy this idea as a dark edgy side of Cobra.

But I never did figure out why Snake-Eyes did not kill Cobra Commander in 108. One cut, and the Commander's "migraines are cured forever..."

Anyway, I'm glad jumping the shark made the forum. It is an enigmatic conversation. :)

[Bayer]

I think that GI Joe "jumped the shark" when the writers sat down in a meeting and agreed to the creation of Serpentor. While in a SciFi venue, the single composite clone incorporating all of histories greatest military minds has some merit, GI Joe was military adventure fiction. This was the single greatest mistake in the storyline but there were more.

Other "jumping" moments for me were; The "mass" killings of old favs like Breaker and Doc, The increasingly outlandish characters like Raptor or Raptor Boy or what ever with an unlikely Pogo thing, BF2000 (nuf said), Ninja Force, Eco Force, you name it Force.

Then, as I mentioned, there was this bend toward making GI Joe more and more SciFi/X-man. I like SciFi. I like Military fiction. I even like Military SciFi. But the original premise of GI Joe was a counter terrorist force. I can't see the Pentagon, Congress, or the President risking national resources not to mention their careers to fund a budget as tremendous as the one that paid for a space shuttle, an aircraft carrier, an enormous sand crawler, ultra-futuristic testbed fighting machines, or a roster of soldiers that would make what started as a small team of specially trained and skilled soldiers into a battalion strength special operation unit.

Uh...sorry. I loved GI Joe as a kid, but I have always felt a little betrayed by Marvel and Hasbro over their loss of the original vision. Marvel generated stories which were elaborate but less and less probable/plausible. the creation of Cobra Island or the Cross-over with the Transformers being a perfect examples.

Then the toy line seemed to generate a rather lot of singular one-time only figures and equipment. It took nearly 20 years to get a Quinn figure (who while killed rather early in the series, had more soul than many of the characters who followed).

Just my two cents.

[Sonneilon]

Bayer, there was a certain point where the comic had to follow what Hasbro wanted. Larry Hama had no desire to bring in Serpentor, but had to. He did put his foot down on Cobra-La. Now here's the question for us old folks. Do you remember when there used to be ads for the comic book on tv? I believe the 1st issue that tied comic to toy is coming up in next week's Comic Box.

Just keep in mind, Hama did what he could with what he was given. With TMNT on the rise, it's no wonder why SE and the ninja got pushed over everything else. But to note, DD doesn't have the same stipulations (hasbro ok's the stories but doesn't breathe down their neck) and yet, things are still bad. Go figure on that one.

[ender098]

I honestly didn't mind Serpentor, but the "let's clone everyone" got old! Serpentor was a sound Idea, but when they killed him off, they had to go "high and right" to bring him back!

[lehsreh]

[COLOR=Red]i must say that i thought the idea of sepentor and cobra island were great ideas. the cobra island war was, in my opinion, GREAT!!! i agree that the killing of the old well known and liked characters was a big mistake. i once said in another post that i like to see characters killed, but instead of the well known characters who were very popular in the cartoon and figures, why not kill off newer characters. i would rather see a hardball killed anyday then a doc. and i hated the space story, the eco warriors ,this might have been to get kids into stopping polution, which is great, but captain planet did well enough. and i hated the d.e.f storyline too. honestly, i know alot of people are going to disagree with me, but i wish they hadnt taken billie any farther then the issues where he was trying to kill cobra commander.[/COLOR]

[ender098]

I didn't mind that they killed a few older characters off, I just hated the way they did it. I call it the "Hamburger Hill" Approach. (after the movie Hamburger Hill) it goes like this.....


Hi. Meet some guys. (in GI Joes case, meet characters that arent too interesting and we haven't used in a while) and .....BOOM. WATCH 'EM ALL DIE.

You never had to to feel for them. Or get to know them. My reaction was "Shit, now what am I gonna do with my ______ ? (Add figure in blank, Doc, HeavyMetal, etc.)

I hated when DD killed off Flash and MAinFrame, but they did it classy! ;) I gotta give them that!

[Outrider]

[QUOTE=Sonneilon]Just after the Cobra War for me.[/QUOTE]

Spot on G. The Cobra civil war was the last great storyline of the Marvel run.

[Self-Modifier]

I started to post this in the Favorite Joes thread in defense of Slice, but I figure I'll put it here since it fits better.

The post-100 issues aren't that bad. There's no arguing that the series was past it's prime, but it still had a lot going for it. Yes, the goofy sub-groups are there, but there's lots of good stuff too, including "Destro: Search and Destroy," the battle at the Silent Castle in Trans-Carpathia, the return to Borovia wherein Hawk gets shot (again!), Cobra's invasion of Pit III (which is one of Duke's best moments in the comic series), the Scarlett as a defector storyline, and the Star Brigade story-- which, though I have problems with the existence of Star Brigade, is actually a really good story if you can get past the inherent "wrong-ness" of its premise.

Plus there's lots of good soap operatics, which was always one of my favorite aspects of the series, and a good chunk of it was drawn by Andrew Wildman, one of the best artists to grace the pages of the series.

[Ion]

I never really was into G.I.Joe comic (just own a 3 or four issues) - simply I never had the whole story. I preferred to make my own stories playing with the toys :)

But as long as the figures go, I think that they "jumped the shark" around Armour Tech series (they really COULD be better delivered...) and real downhill is for me the newest series - beginning from the year 2000. Characters are overmade - arms like a bear and hips thinner than Twiggy... (the Spy Troops flint waistpiece is smaller than classic Joe) and somehow I don't like the concept. Apart from a few GOOD ideas and remakes - old figures with remolded heads - they look well :)

And - one thing that come to my mind right now. G.I.Joe always reacted quicky to the newest trends and fashions. TMNT? Here you go with Ninja Force and similar. Star Wars Remastered? Launch Star Brigade (it's a simplification, but still...). So I would say, that taking whole G.I.Joe series under scrutiny, you'll have a full view of what themes were in fashon - I think there's no other series like that :)

[ender098]

[QUOTE=Ion]
And - one thing that come to my mind right now. G.I.Joe always reacted quicky to the newest trends and fashions. TMNT? Here you go with Ninja Force and similar. Star Wars Remastered? Launch Star Brigade (it's a simplification, but still...). So I would say, that taking whole G.I.Joe series under scrutiny, you'll have a full view of what themes were in fashon - I think there's no other series like that :)[/QUOTE]


Let us not forget DEF = Cops, Eco Warriors = Capt Planet, Mega Marines = Aliens and the Set I'm dying to get even though I HATE the concept Dino Hunters = Jurassic Park.( I just want a Blond Lowlight figure) LOL!

[Ion]

Yep :) All the shows that I saw at least once in my life :)

Though Dino Hunters concept could be interesting you know? :) Mostly because it might have brought up some nice figures - DH Ambush i quite well, and Gnawgahyde even asks to be in this subset! (Resembles Talbot from some JP part :) )

I only wonder what would they do with "Denver the last dinossaur" ;)

[rds13601]

Capt Grid Iron, DEF, Ninja FORCE. :eek:

[Red Sox]

I would say the comic jumped when it became [SIZE=1]G.I. JOE[/SIZE] starring [SIZE=6]SNAKE EYES[/SIZE] :(

The toys jumped in the neon ninjafied '90s. :(

The toon jumped with the wretched Cobra-La movie. (Shudder) :( :mad:

[yorktownjoe]

[QUOTE=Red Sox]
The toon jumped with the wretched Cobra-La movie. (Shudder) :( :mad:[/QUOTE]

So how many people are looking for a 25th Anniversary Golobulus with a fully articulating tail? ;) I own that movie on VHS, but I must agree, the whole concept is slightly disturbing.

If they made a bunch more figures like Falcon v1, we would buy them. But the marginal difference in overall sales on the quarterly sales spreadsheet at big H would not vary enough to merit changes to production procedures. We (GI Joe purchasers) are but a wee part of their overall sales market.

When a new batch of figures would come out in the 80's, I would grab the best looking figure on the peg, and then decide in about 5 minutes how many of the rest of that release were worth my $3.25 by looking at the thumbnails on the back of the card.

Hasbro probably could have predicted sales decreases when people like me stopped buying the "whole wave" of their offerings. But since they made more money on other offerings, I don't know that it would have mattered.

It is amazing that despite jumping the shark, they have been able to revive the 3.75" franchise for a few years now for die-hards and retro/nostalgia buyers.

Alas, all good things eventually come to an end.

[Outrider]

[QUOTE=ender098]Let us not forget DEF = Cops, Eco Warriors = Capt Planet, Mega Marines = Aliens and the Set I'm dying to get even though I HATE the concept Dino Hunters = Jurassic Park.( I just want a Blond Lowlight figure) LOL![/QUOTE]

Frank, the Dino Hunters set is not too bad (once you chuck the moronic dinosaur). The figures are okay, and a quick respray renders the Desert Fox useful too. :)

[ender098]

[QUOTE=Outrider]Frank, the Dino Hunters set is not too bad (once you chuck the moronic dinosaur). The figures are okay, and a quick respray renders the Desert Fox useful too. :)[/QUOTE]

I have the desert fox from the set, complete (snagged it for $4.00 in ebay, only missing the hooks, which I got in another lot I purchased!) I LOVE the figures even though I'm no big fan of Ambush. They have them on Ebay right now for $59.99. I should say to hell with it and pay the outrageous price and be done with it! Not like I haven't spent way too much on figures before!

You know, I'd probably have liked the set if they had used the TRex from the JP Molds!

[Jay]

The toys jumped the shark when Roadblock stopped being sold with machine guns in his packaging (Battle Corps post-recall, Star Brigade).

[ToneGunsRevisited]

To me the Comic Packs are a kind of jumping sharks. Wait, wait! I love most of them, they jumped sharks when they stopped doing the comic packs, when today to get a Horror Show we get spoiled and when they couldn't gave us some good and new characters like Dr. Venom, Billy (I don't care for him really, but many of my collectors friend want them), Scarface and others. And the most important, nice headsculpts that they missed. Adding the high point of thumbs that doesn't brake.

[Ion]

Yep - those non-breakning thumbs are something, that should've been done a long time ago. I think (no matter the technology) - it also could have been used on the waistpieces - crotch especially.
But thumbs are good. At least I can give my new-wave Viper ANY kind of weapon (from pistol to gatling) without risk of breaking his thumbs or risk of enlarging his hand in the way he won't be able to hold anything aprt from the large rifles with stocks...

[Dersham]

I admit when I first read the Jump the Shark thing I didn't get it, thankfully I do the second time around. Anyway for me the joes are not on a downslide but rather they've gone up and down all the time. So far what everyone's mentioned has caused me to think of the downs but there's been several ups too. Americas Elite was a down, but it went up when Cobra Commander and the Phoenix Guard showed up, though this General Rey stuff is silly. Gijoe Reloaded was a down, until the Hawaii invasion then I started to like it and then it ended and that was a down.

All those crazy new units made during Battle Corps time was a down, but the new molds and some of the characters are an up as well as those bendy thumbs which I love so much and thats a huge up! I've tried to make my own thumbs with limited success but they look like oversized... well thumbs. Then there's the DTC thing which is a down, but at least their cool figures so its not much of a down. And then this 25th Anniversary thing is looking like a down, but it still has a chance to go back up.

I try not to think of the start and finish of things but try to think of things as always changing and moving. I thought GI JOE was finished in the late 90s and I would never see another new figure, but that all changed a few years later so who knows it could happen again. GI JOE could have some new resurgence and be totally awesome and all that sort of thing.

[Bayer]

The one overwhelming reason I like this forum site over any other Joe forum I've looked at is that whether or not we agree on a point, we always discuss it enough to get both sides of that point.

I had forgotten (Blissfully?) about the trendy attitude that seemed to permeate the line (eg. TNMT = Ninja Force/increased ninja stories, Captain Planet = Eco Force, etc.). That is a valid point. My memories of the stories may be tainted by time and re-exposure to the classic (old) Sgt. Rock stories that tended to be based more in a single view of war and less on supporting a toyline.

I still hold that we (the collector) have been hosed by Hasbro on several occasions. But arguably, those occasions have always been directly linked to falling sales and shifts in public interest. Hasbro does have share holders who expect profits.

As to the Marvel staff of the 80's...they did create a storyline captivating enough for those of us who read it to still be discussing it oh so many years later.

Once again Sonnelion, you point out things I either overlooked or didn't remember concerning the behind the scenes.

Thanks

[Sonneilon]

I figure you can hack on the comic only so far. I imagine the old Marvel series would have been way different if Hama didn't have his hands tied. It wasn't necessarily, "You must use this storyline in this way and on page 20, this happens..." It was, from my understanding, "The Devilfish, Beach Head, Wetsuit and the Terrordrome need to be showcased, use them." And then BAM! Storm Shadow is shot down by the Baroness! (you guys remember that story arc, right?)

Now, if you REALLY want to go after a group, go after Devils Due. Hasbro isn't leaning on DD to do 'their' stories. Blaylock understands that they are kids in the same toybox, it's just that Hasbro is the bigger kid. So it's a 'nice' gesture on their part to incorporate the toys now and then. Barrel Roll, Blackout, Depth Charge, characters like that could have been omitted if wanted.

At the same time, ahem, Hasbro saw something that Blaylock did and really liked it. The character is Kamakura.

Anyway, do we want to discuss when the DD series JUMPED SHARK? lol

[ender098]

[QUOTE=Sonneilon]
At the same time, ahem, Hasbro saw something that Blaylock did and really liked it. The character is Kamakura. [/QUOTE]

Hasbro like an overused concept like a new ninja that they can give motorcycles ( a ninja on a motorcycle? Next thing you know, they make a Night Creeper a Hiss driver :eek: ...then how's he supposed to sneak up on people?) I think Hasbro liked Kamakura because he brings a "Power Ranger-esque" feel to GI Joe. I like him from the DD stand point. Like when he shot Overkill in the back of the head to save General Hawk. No smoke bombs, no intricate ninja super powers, just a 9mm to the back of the old brain housing group! I liked that. If Hasbro's concept of GI Joe could stay grounded and only dabble in futuristic weapons, they would be sooo much better off!


[QUOTE=Sonneilon]
Anyway, do we want to discuss when the DD series JUMPED SHARK? lol[/QUOTE]


Yeah, can you say RELOADED? WTF? The original series was good bringing back GI Joe, but the Reloaded is like watching the old BattleStar Galactica and then seeing the new one (The only difference is, I actually liked the new BSG better than the old until Season 3).

[Red Sox]

I didn't mind reloaded because it was a different continuity and it had no effect on the main comic.

[Lava Boss]

Tired of that phrase "jump the shark".

Cartoon: GI JOE THE MOVIE (COBRA-LA)

Toys: 1991 (when vehicles went into the neon toilet and spring launchers and other gimmicks appeared in force, plus the line all but rebooted, Cobra Commander was back, the next year Destro was back with Cobra...weak)

Comics: The Snake-Eyes Trilogy and the Return of Cobra Commander. One linked Baroness to Snake-Eyes, and effectively ruined her character to this day. Cobra Commander should've stayed "dead" (just like the Green Goblin, the Red Skull and countless other popular baddies that were too "great" to leave in the grave.)