Hammerfel.... Let's do this

[Prince Adam]

Man to man, and admin to admin. This conversation needs to be had and it needs to be seen. My intent is merely in the spirit of heartfelt honesty and I present my thoughts, and the thoughts of others, both with us and not, from a perspective of (what some will call "questionable") integrity. We don’t know one another on a first name basis so I’m going to stick w/ "Hammer". You may call me Xander, if you like.

[QUOTE=Hammerfel]Let's count our blessings. The rating system is turned off for now, and the drama is bound to decrease. Let's get back to making cool art![/QUOTE]

Hammer, I'm going to level with you here.
I think you're cool people, and many others that I associate myself with do as well. This site is in essence ingenious and the only one of it's kind at no mistake. But there's dissention in your ranks. There has been for a while now. But ever since Craig and others started going to Flickr it's been brewing over. We're known as the "Flickr gang" now and god knows what else we're referred to on MSN chat. Our migration had nothing to do with JDs outside of the fact that we no longer had to deal with the Elite.

The Elite. Or so they would like to think. There are a handful of members here who have apparently been here since the site started and they act as though that gives them some due sense of entitlement. They only rate pics and rarely comment much less post their own. But the second one of them does post a pic they all flock to it though like it's the best shot ever. Truth be told, any of the "Flick gang" could go toe-toe with said elite any day of the week.

You see years ago, while these elitists were hiding behind their instant messages and their inboxes trying to pass their “final word” on the pics, WE became each other’s support. Guys like Outrider, Scarrviper, Flatline, Roland_Thompson_Gunner, Dreadnok Dread, (to name a few, very few) became the main posters and were always trying to help each other out compared to the others sitting in rowboats shooting spitballs at the battleships taking over. We didn’t all start out good, hell, my earliest shots were crap! But we didn’t condemn each other for it. Instead we coached our new found friends and cheered on each new shot pushing ourselves to do better. As a result a brotherhood was formed and, yes, it stands today. True story.

Where the animosity or jealousy toward us stems from I cannot say, whether it’s one generation hating the next I don’t really know. But it’s there and has been for years. Now that quite a few people have moved to Flickr and only seldom post on JDs the animosity from the elitists has grown stronger. We exist without their self-fulfilling sense of approval, we’ve angered the gods and inadvertently at that. A line has been drawn but we didn’t draw it.

Hammer, you’re a Flickr user, hell you’re a member of Outrider’s O-Ring group, you know it’s ultimately aimed and based around the art and enjoyment of photography. That’s why we’re there. We aren’t anti-JDs. Oh, it’ll look like that from afar, and yes some people are fed up with certain members here, but ultimately this is where we all started out and hold no real issues with the spirit and concept of this site.
Right now for us Flickr’s the kind of place this spot has all the potential to be, an artist colony full of friends sharing a common hobby. Instead JoeDios gets riddled by internet politics and wielded like a weapon against those who would really just like to get on with the fun. Sad, but again true.

I expect full on that these elitists will standup and deny any and all accusations and truths brought on by this post and when they do, you, Hammer, will know good and well who they are (should they have the stomach to expose themselves). But I don’t stand alone and I speak for the dozens who have stood together over the years.

Should you like to continue this we can do so via PM, or you can visit the O-Ring and see that it’s all about the fun and the hobby. Certainly not about choosing sides or declaring war on one another.

[NemesisEnforcerFan]

This pretty much touches on what I just said in my other post PA. I happen to think Nate is trying to do the right thing as well. He's got a stonker (great) site and its full of potential, always has been.

I didnt want to bring Outrider into it. But he told me himself that the place became all about personality politics and i know i had lengthy chats with Outrider via FM before he passed away about his time spent there.

Me and Outrider had more in common that just the gijoes. We'd talk about alot of things. If you go back far enough i actually didnt get off on the best foot with Craig at all. But I realised what a great inspiration he was.

Sadly there are veteran members here, for whatever reason that escapes me have some kind of personal agenda, and for a while now they've utilised their veteran status and abused it in a cruel way. If you need to speak to me personally, i am in the UK but up late and i'm on MSN messaging you right now.

I do hope that Joe Dios gets past this turmoil and I meant every word I said in my previous post on the 'bannings' thread.

I am one of the many veterans of this site that happens to be in agreement with PA about this whole issue.

Regards
NEF

[Hammerfel]

Well, you both stated your case quite eloquently. I especially liked the "rowboats shooting spitballs at the battleships" metaphor.

I have to admit, I didn't know, or care to know about the 2 "cliques" forming up. I hate cliques, and I was counting on mature artists transcending cliques for the sake of the art.

In high school and college, I wasn't a member of just one clique, I was in several of them, and learned my love of diplomacy by bridging those divides.

In addition to cliques, I also hate elitists. And thugs. And anyone else who takes enjoyment out of picking on other people, whether it's griping about an inconsequential violation of a minor rule, or drawing grotesquely obscene caricatures of members you don't like and posting them to Flickr. NemesisEnforcerFan, I'd like to hear what you have to say about this, as I haven't witnessed this cruelty myself. I don't doubt you at all, I just don't have a lot of time to police JD and may not be picking up on that stuff.

Prince Adam, your description of the creative collaboration amongst talented artists is why I made this site. That and to archive great work for the ages. Before JoeDios, the most popular place to post dios was in a sub-forum of JoeCustoms, and those were pruned after 30 days of inactivity. SO MUCH great art was lost! That spurred me to make a home for people like you and me.

I don't know the 2 groups as well as you do, but I am reading your point loud and clear. As for why the animosity began, it may be cultural or generational. I know swearing and flaming in threads really pushes some people's buttons, (especially parents whose kids participate in Joes and read the site) while it doesn't bother others. This loose language also turned away quite a number of former and incoming members ( I have many PM's to that effect). It sounded more like a locker room than a community. So that certainly has to stop, as it is giving JD a bad name in the greater Joe community. I also know being nit-picky about the rules and calling people out for something minor (posting 4 pics in a row instead of 3 since you're using a dial-up connection from Iraq or something) turns people off, too! Many creative people are sensitive types, and thrive in friendlier environments. And less strict environments. I'm not a strict Admin.

What I really want is what Prince Adam described so well, I'll just quote him:
We didn’t all start out good, hell, my earliest shots were crap! But we didn’t condemn each other for it. Instead we coached our new found friends and cheered on each new shot pushing ourselves to do better. As a result a brotherhood was formed and, yes, it stands today. True story.

My goal now, and I need your help on this, is to combine the "MSN Group" and the "Flickr group", "Veterans", "Elitists" and those who have no care for any of this political baloney and make one group: JoeDios members.

How can you help? Post more images, dios and threads! Be constructive with your criticism! Don't be an elitist jerk. If there's a policy violation you HAVE to get off your chest, don't play forum cop on your own, PM me about it and I'll deal with it if it warrants it. Keep the sailor talk off the site. My 8 year old son is reading it now, as are the kids of many other members (exceptions for text inside Dios that are off-site. Shipwreck has a mouth like a sailor, I hear :) ).

But above all else, BE CREATIVE and celebrate each others' creativity!

I am also very open to other ways we can stop being "this group" or "that group" and be JoeDios artists again.

[Dreadnok Dread]

[QUOTE=NemesisEnforcerFan]This pretty much touches on what I just said in my other post PA. I happen to think Nate is trying to do the right thing as well. He's got a stonker (great) site and its full of potential, always has been.

I didnt want to bring Outrider into it. But he told me himself that the place became all about personality politics and i know i had lengthy chats with Outrider via FM before he passed away about his time spent there.

Me and Outrider had more in common that just the gijoes. We'd talk about alot of things. If you go back far enough i actually didnt get off on the best foot with Craig at all. But I realised what a great inspiration he was.

Sadly there are veteran members here, for whatever reason that escapes me have some kind of personal agenda, and for a while now they've utilised their veteran status and abused it in a cruel way. If you need to speak to me personally, i am in the UK but up late and i'm on MSN messaging you right now.

I do hope that Joe Dios gets past this turmoil and I meant every word I said in my previous post on the 'bannings' thread.

I am one of the many veterans of this site that happens to be in agreement with PA about this whole issue.

Regards
NEF[/QUOTE]







Its the truth! When I found this site, I was shown it by prudence, I was on JBL and thought there was a clique over there! I believe i spelled that right! she told me there were great people here! she was right! I just wanted to learn and grow with my dios and stories! I came over here and got bashed in a good way though! I remember FF would tell me i need to crop my shots more it was annoying but the truth, guilt would show me and tell me about angles and cropping as well, vader,craig,flats they all helped me showed me how to make trees and get foilage! everyone helped me! craigs showed me how accessories could bring out the dullest scenes! it was a great site with people posting 1 or 2 pics that were awesome and different not with the same light and same scene twenty times over! I want to know what happened! All the said banned people all get along on flickr! were a group of friends that can take sh%^ and dish it to! thats how people get better! I can't critique someone lights or photoshop without getting my head bitten off now! Pa is 100% right! this sites awesome, but people have to step back and realize who the lambs are and why there being led to the slaughter! Peace DD p.s. thanks for fixing the sizing issue!

[Hammerfel]

BTW, I'm on Skype, too, if you guys want to talk. I'm a slow typist! :) PM me for my handle.

So, DD, you're saying you get your head bitten off when you post constructive criticism here on JD?

[LordRaven]

I've kept pretty quiet over the last few weeks, and had just decided to start posting photos again and have FUN with this site. I'm going to keep doing just that, what ever else has happened, it is over and done with. I'm not holding grudges or keeping a "flame" of hate light, so to speak. I'm here to play with my friends, ALL of you, in the one place where people get me. I'm here to take photos of a collection I should have given up when I hit my late teens but am more passionate about now than ever.

When I wasn't posting alot, I still kept an eye on the site. It's like the old saying goes "Once A Marine, Always A Marine". I will ALWAYS be a member of Joedios.com. I'm going to do my best to make sure everything I do here is FUN, not just for me but for YOU guys too.

I've made alot of friends, and every year that list gets bigger and bigger, and I hope it just keeps growing.

Anyone, and I mean ANYONE, feel free to PM me, IM me, post or comment to me about anything. I'll be more than happy to rap with ya about anything, Joe related or not.

I just want our playground to be fun. I hope you do too.

[Dreadnok Dread]

[QUOTE=Hammerfel]BTW, I'm on Skype, too, if you guys want to talk. I'm a slow typist! :) PM me for my handle.

So, DD, you're saying you get your head bitten off when you post constructive criticism here on JD?[/QUOTE]



Well, I have tryed to better myself after outriders death, I have asked myself what did i love about craig and it was the way he taught us things! the way he could crit your stuff and you would understand what he was saying, ive been trying to do that with people, around here and flickr, some take it good and use it others either give me a nice attitude or dont even reflect on it! So I try and if i get no response i move onto the next couple of shots thats all! people used to take criticism better here is all! :D

[Flatline]

[QUOTE=Hammerfel]
How can you help? Post more images, dios and threads! Be constructive with your criticism! Don't be an elitist jerk. [/QUOTE]

I can do this.....I think :p

[Hammerfel]

That doesn't sound like you're getting your head bitten off here. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you...

Outrider had a GREAT "Art Director" style touch. he could help you with tips and you never felt "preached to".

[vader9900]

[QUOTE=Flatline]I can do this.....I think :p [/QUOTE]
The "not being a jerk" part is the tough one :p

[Flatline]

[QUOTE=vader9900]The "not being a jerk" part is the tough one :p[/QUOTE]
Exactly that's all I know how to be!!! :mad:

[vader9900]

[QUOTE=Flatline]Exactly that's all I know how to be!!! :mad: [/QUOTE] :D

[Death_at_Midnight]

This is a cool place. I still feel like a newbie (but in a good way). Lots o folks post cool shots. I learn a lot by the comments, but more by looking at what they do. For example, Hammerfel posted some pics of a battle scene at long distance, then of his camera. Footloose does great photos, then posted pics of his tripods and LED lights. Some years ago, or maybe months, in a Weekend Warriors theme, ppl posted shots of how they did their sets--the stuff you don't see. I liked that. Educational and inspired me to try other approaches.

In honesty, the Internet is a great big place of which I care little about. People often appear on one site then vanish onto another site all the time. That's the nature of the 'Net. People visit a site, lurk, join, contribute, grow tired of it then move on to another site.

I don't care what goes on in the other sites. I care what goes on in JoeDios.

[Self-Modifier]

Am I the only one who didn't know there were "cliques"? I've been a member here for a very long time, and with rare exceptions (vacations, etc.), I have come to this site literally every single day since the day I joined! Yet I didn't know about any of this until that big thread a couple of weeks ago.

I guess my point is, is it possible that a few people from either side are blowing this all way out of proportion? I seriously didn't notice any dissent until very recently! Maybe it just means I wasn't paying very close attention...

[Death_at_Midnight]

[QUOTE=Self-Modifier]Am I the only one who didn't know there were "cliques"? I've been a member here for a very long time, and with rare exceptions (vacations, etc.), I have come to this site literally every single day since the day I joined! Yet I didn't know about any of this until that big thread a couple of weeks ago.

I guess my point is, is it possible that a few people from either side are blowing this all way out of proportion? I seriously didn't notice any dissent until very recently! Maybe it just means I wasn't paying very close attention...[/QUOTE]


I always liked your avatar image, Self-Modifier!

[Hammerfel]

[QUOTE=Self-Modifier]Am I the only one who didn't know there were "cliques"? I've been a member here for a very long time, and with rare exceptions (vacations, etc.), I have come to this site literally every single day since the day I joined! Yet I didn't know about any of this until that big thread a couple of weeks ago.

I guess my point is, is it possible that a few people from either side are blowing this all way out of proportion? I seriously didn't notice any dissent until very recently! Maybe it just means I wasn't paying very close attention...[/QUOTE]I'm in the same boat as you. People give me lists of who's in which camp, and I really have to try hard to care who is on what side. In my mind, they're all JOEDIOS members, and under my protection. :)

[vader9900]

[QUOTE=Self-Modifier]Am I the only one who didn't know there were "cliques"? [/QUOTE]
I did not know either. I have been on Flickr for a long time mainly because I photograph more than just GI Joe. Star Wars is my first love and I take alot of SW pics. I did not know I was at war with a MSN group :eek:
I do not comment as much as I used to, mainly for lack of time but I will start more. This is an awesome place, thank you Nate for providing it at your expense for us! I am sorry you are having to go through this, I am sure you feel like you are a kindergarten teacher. Long live JD, the BEST place for Joes on the net!

[LordRaven]

[QUOTE=vader9900] Long live JD, the BEST place for Joes on the net![/QUOTE]

I couldn't have put it better myself. :D

[Rambo]

Being part of the 2 groups I would like to say 2 things.

About the MSN Crew:
I was approached by them when I first joined the JD. A good place to share friendship and have a real-time chat. Learned some techniques from them like the macro button and the no-flash rule. It has been a good place for me to practice myself taught English. It is a good place too to share not-toys related subjects.

The Flickr Gang:
In late 2009 I was invited there by Craig because there was the O-Ring group (later called after him) where ARAH fans like me were sharing their pictures (JD was out of business at that time). I enjoy my time there.

I show respect to people in what I say, in my pictures and in my trades; and expect the same.

The only [COLOR=YellowGreen]ELITE [/COLOR] is in Heaven now. And I think he wouldn't call elite himself.

[rnrhero]

I didn't realize either that the Flickr people were a clique. I went there because I wanted to post some of my 12in figures and don't really like posting that stuff here, though I have on occasion. Anyway, I am friends on flickr with most of you here and I guess am part of that clique. I just like the fact that some would post multiple angles of pics and things so I could see more. I just love the photo's even though I dont comment on all I still love them all. Really looked at Flickr as Joediosplus.com.

The crazy thing is of all the posts that I have done there and seen of others, no internet politics at all.

[Flatline]

[QUOTE=Rambo]

The only [COLOR=YellowGreen]ELITE [/COLOR] is in Heaven now. And I think he wouldn't call elite himself.[/QUOTE]
WORD UP CARLOS

[Death_at_Midnight]

[QUOTE=rnrhero]...I wanted to post some of my 12in figures and don't really like posting that stuff here, though I have on occasion.[/QUOTE]


I never really cared about the 12in Joes at all until joining here, JoeDios, and being very impressed with what i saw. Would like to see more of them. I've recently gotten into Maschinen Krieger, there's a 12" figure and armored suit in that (lights up, does stuff) It's tempting to want to buy that, mostly the desire started by those who posted pics of 12in Joes here.

[Hammerfel]

[QUOTE=Death_at_Midnight] there's a 12" figure and armored suit in that (lights up, does stuff) It's tempting to want to buy that, mostly the desire started by those who posted pics of 12in Joes here.[/QUOTE]Go for it!

[Death_at_Midnight]

[QUOTE=Hammerfel]Go for it![/QUOTE]

The 12" Maschinen Krieger? I wish! It's crazy expensive, over $1500 USD. The figure is really nice too, and so is the armor.. and something like 600 made only.. don't tempt me please!

:-P

[Tracker]

heck i might be putting this too simple but i see no reason for anyone to clique up here it all action figure where making art from whether it 25th/modern, o-rings, 12", star wars ,PTE , elite force, other ...etc...... so i say have fun and don't take it too seriously and keep posting because , i can't speak or everyone, I relay enjoy looking at what other folks create.

[ThinkTank]

Makes me wonder what people say about me when I'm not around. I stay away from chat rooms on general principal. Flickr is ok but it's kinda clunky and you can only have 200 pics on a free account. I haven't been around long enough to be an elitist old guard secret society member. I like RTG and FF and have been on their underground bus ride talking smack about self important jerks on hisstank. Where does that leave me? Probly in the same boat as the majority of members here, more concerned about gi Joe pictures while I'm here than anythink else. I come here every day for a little escape from my often stressful and backstabby political bs filled job. I have evenbeen working on my own diostory again. The site is not going to suck or dry up if you take steps to prevent it. Take some pics, good bad or ugly. Make some comments. If you lime something, say so. If you see something that could be improved, say so. Just be nice to as many people as you can and let the being nice come back to you or not. Youhave enough drama at home away from your toys alread and you

[Hammerfel]

[QUOTE=ThinkTank]Makes me wonder what people say about me when I'm not around. I stay away from chat rooms on general principal. Flickr is ok but it's kinda clunky and you can only have 200 pics on a free account. I haven't been around long enough to be an elitist old guard secret society member. I like RTG and FF and have been on their underground bus ride talking smack about self important jerks on hisstank. Where does that leave me? Probly in the same boat as the majority of members here, more concerned about gi Joe pictures while I'm here than anythink else. I come here every day for a little escape from my often stressful and backstabby political bs filled job. I have evenbeen working on my own diostory again. The site is not going to suck or dry up if you take steps to prevent it. Take some pics, good bad or ugly. Make some comments. If you lime something, say so. If you see something that could be improved, say so. Just be nice to as many people as you can and let the being nice come back to you or not. Youhave enough drama at home away from your toys alread and you[/QUOTE]
Could NOT have said it better myself!

[Hammerfel]

[QUOTE=Death_at_Midnight]The 12" Maschinen Krieger? I wish! It's crazy expensive, over $1500 USD. The figure is really nice too, and so is the armor.. and something like 600 made only.. don't tempt me please!

:-P[/QUOTE]
No, sorry, I meant post pics of 12" Joes if you want to!

[SIC DETH]

Hammerfel, I would like to say thank you for this site and you do a amzing job maintaining it!!! Im glad you provide us with a place to enjoy our hobby. Politics or not, this is a good thing you are doing here bro!!!(call it brown nosing , kissing ass what ever) I search the web everyday looking for Dio sites and none even come close to this place. Everyone sitting one your high horse, come on down. This guy doesnt deserve the headache!!!!

[yorktownjoe]

I like to check pics both here and at Flickr, though for me, summer is a time to spend with family, and outside.

I will always love Joedios first and foremost as I never would have "met" fine folks like Outrider, Toneguns, Price Adam and countless others who encouraged me and gave hints on how to improve lighting and focus in my photography.

I also like the review section which helps with making decisions when budgets run tight.

One feature I like in Flickr is watching the slideshow while eating or sipping a lemonade. That is the ultimate in laziness...no need to type or click, the pictures just keep rolling...:)

I just figured people posted to both to get more comments and feedback.

Thanks for a great place to view and post pictures, and a safe place to play. (Both my 9 and 6 year old check out pictures looking over my shoulder, so I appreciate how most folks keep the language clean.)

[pbarny1701]

Some observations about life, the site, internet and helped by not being on any medication at the moment (shhhhhhh don't tell the pyschiatrists) :p

People say they want honesty. What they really are looking for is affirmation. Honesty and truth can be brutal at times, and if you're not ready for it, you want your mommy fast.

When young, single and childless I had time to do stuff that seemed important like chat online (mostly with people at FFURG.com and ex-college friends), watch a lot of TV and Movies, and . Now with a mortage, wife, and kid I'm lucky to watch the local weather these days when not in the lab. When the kid naps, if I don't have yard or house work to do, I customize, take pics, edit pics. Would I like to get to know more here personally? Sure. But knowing your work for now is all I can, and all I can speak to with honesty and occassionally Carlin-esqe sarcasm (see above about honesty).

You don't learn or get better by being successful. You have to fail. It is the only way to learn. Eight plus years of neuroscience, chemistry, and pharmacology research is more than enough to back that up with peer reviewed work if life hasn't taught you it yet. From time to time, throw up a failure to see what went wrong, and if anyone out there can help. You never know when you'll find the right mentor and they'll get everything going better.

I mentioned FFURG above. There the rule is if you're going to just compliment (or insult) don't post. If you're going to explain why something is good, what you liked, what you didn't, etc, please go ahead. It takes time, practice, and patience to learn to post questions like that. It also takes a thicker skin and more self-critical eye from the picture poster. But it helps everyone. Those who lack the skills start asking how something is done, the "artist" has should explain, others can learn, copy, and make better work themselves. You may not be able to see what the picture poster means for several attempts, but each one will bring you closer to your personal expectations, and that is all that matters. Whether this would work or could be tried here sounds like what a great number of posters have suggested, but that lies in others hands.


Ok, now that is done. Thanks to Hammerfel for the site. Thanks to the contributors. Thanks to those who have commented on my small amount of things. I've thought about everything said that is constructive, may not have incorporated it, but definitely filing it away for sometime. That's just what's in my mind, it could be schziopherenic.

[zedhatch]

•People say they want honesty. What they really are looking for is affirmation. Honesty and truth can be brutal at times, and if you're not ready for it, you want your mommy fast.

This should be gospell

Just to chime in, I don't care what one faction or another says or does, I am out of it. I got no problems with anyone that has posted here, in fact I only have problmes with 2 people on the interwebs and neither of them are here (so I will not bring it here).

But I dispise internet drama, I got sucked into some of it a few years ago and since then I just keep away when it rears its ugly head, which is what I am doing now with this situation. It's a waste of time, energy and emotion that can be better spent in other pursuits.

•When young, single and childless I had time to do stuff that seemed important like chat online (mostly with people at FFURG.com and ex-college friends), watch a lot of TV and Movies, and . Now with a mortage, wife, and kid I'm lucky to watch the local weather these days when not in the lab. When the kid naps, if I don't have yard or house work to do, I customize, take pics, edit pics. Would I like to get to know more here personally? Sure. But knowing your work for now is all I can, and all I can speak to with honesty and occassionally Carlin-esqe sarcasm (see above about honesty).

Exactly, real life is the most important thing in the world, no one ever said on thier death bed "I wish I had worked more." While we do this stuff we do for fun, the greatest fun is the smile of your child or a loving touch from you wife, ect.

Hammer, let me join the rest to say thanks for the site, I enjoy it here and enjoy posting my stuffs, I am terrible at commenting on everone ele's projects, see the above statement as to why. But this site is a great conglameration of creative minds and projects.

[ToneGunsRevisited]

Where did it all come from?

I'm one of the oldest members here, I'm on flickr, I chat at MSN and go frequently around other G.I. Joe forums. Why am I always the last one to know about this kind of dramas?

I don't see cliques, at least I'm always posting on everyone's job. Probably one of the most active in this role here and I don't feel this groups. Maybe there are, but it is normal to have groups inside a greater group. I wish I'd a better english to explain myself or even to talk more with everyone.

We say here in Brazil something like that: We are searching horns in horse's head.

[Scarrviper]

[QUOTE=Prince Adam]Man to man, and admin to admin. This conversation needs to be had and it needs to be seen. My intent is merely in the spirit of heartfelt honesty and I present my thoughts, and the thoughts of others, both with us and not, from a perspective of (what some will call "questionable") integrity. We don’t know one another on a first name basis so I’m going to stick w/ "Hammer". You may call me Xander, if you like.



Hammer, I'm going to level with you here.
I think you're cool people, and many others that I associate myself with do as well. This site is in essence ingenious and the only one of it's kind at no mistake. But there's dissention in your ranks. There has been for a while now. But ever since Craig and others started going to Flickr it's been brewing over. We're known as the "Flickr gang" now and god knows what else we're referred to on MSN chat. Our migration had nothing to do with JDs outside of the fact that we no longer had to deal with the Elite.

The Elite. Or so they would like to think. There are a handful of members here who have apparently been here since the site started and they act as though that gives them some due sense of entitlement. They only rate pics and rarely comment much less post their own. But the second one of them does post a pic they all flock to it though like it's the best shot ever. Truth be told, any of the "Flick gang" could go toe-toe with said elite any day of the week.

You see years ago, while these elitists were hiding behind their instant messages and their inboxes trying to pass their “final word” on the pics, WE became each other’s support. Guys like Outrider, Scarrviper, Flatline, Roland_Thompson_Gunner, Dreadnok Dread, (to name a few, very few) became the main posters and were always trying to help each other out compared to the others sitting in rowboats shooting spitballs at the battleships taking over. We didn’t all start out good, hell, my earliest shots were crap! But we didn’t condemn each other for it. Instead we coached our new found friends and cheered on each new shot pushing ourselves to do better. As a result a brotherhood was formed and, yes, it stands today. True story.

Where the animosity or jealousy toward us stems from I cannot say, whether it’s one generation hating the next I don’t really know. But it’s there and has been for years. Now that quite a few people have moved to Flickr and only seldom post on JDs the animosity from the elitists has grown stronger. We exist without their self-fulfilling sense of approval, we’ve angered the gods and inadvertently at that. A line has been drawn but we didn’t draw it.

Hammer, you’re a Flickr user, hell you’re a member of Outrider’s O-Ring group, you know it’s ultimately aimed and based around the art and enjoyment of photography. That’s why we’re there. We aren’t anti-JDs. Oh, it’ll look like that from afar, and yes some people are fed up with certain members here, but ultimately this is where we all started out and hold no real issues with the spirit and concept of this site.
Right now for us Flickr’s the kind of place this spot has all the potential to be, an artist colony full of friends sharing a common hobby. Instead JoeDios gets riddled by internet politics and wielded like a weapon against those who would really just like to get on with the fun. Sad, but again true.

I expect full on that these elitists will standup and deny any and all accusations and truths brought on by this post and when they do, you, Hammer, will know good and well who they are (should they have the stomach to expose themselves). But I don’t stand alone and I speak for the dozens who have stood together over the years.

Should you like to continue this we can do so via PM, or you can visit the O-Ring and see that it’s all about the fun and the hobby. Certainly not about choosing sides or declaring war on one another.[/QUOTE]


Very well put Xander.

I created my Flickr account in order to keep in contact with Craig (Outrider) whose access to Joedios was getting weaker and weaker due to internet issues. I believe that's why most of the "flickr gang" went there to begin with. The second reason we went there was because of the animosity created by the fact that we don't like the 25th/movie style of figures. We prefer our vintage style o-ring stuff. Joedios became more and more flooded with average shots featuring them to the point of it being bogged down with 25th stuff. Things were fine until some arguments began and it got worse with the NFO vs. OWN war. It got more and more personal. I think that was what ultimately cemented the divide in this community. There are other things, but this is the aspect that hasn't been brought up yet. The fact is that some people have rubbed other people the wrong way and now Joedios is forever cursed by it. Craig's passing didn't help either. I said this once and I'll say it again. I can't hate this site. It is where I met some of the best of friends, and I would be nowhere without it. I could go on more, but I usually stay out of the politics around here.

[Death_at_Midnight]

[QUOTE=Scarrviper]We prefer our vintage style o-ring stuff.[/QUOTE]


I have always been curious about this. What is it with the new figure designs that o-ring fans simply don't like?

My background:
I started with o-rings as I collected vintage stuff when it originally came out. I still have almost all of mine, but the o-rings are breaking and a lot of the screws are rusting, so I fear taking them out of their boxes. Everytime I touch one I'm risking them breaking, and then have to go to the hardware store to find an o-ring.

What I see:
When the 25th's came out, they didn't look too great. Cobra Commander's head was way small, and then the wrists of many looked like they got slashed. but all in all the design has been improving, they are getting more rugged and articulation is getting greater. Not as easy to torso swap like can do with the o-rings, but more easily to customize with other toy lines from other companies. They are a little taller than the o-rings, which means can't fit in the vintage vehicles without retooling. There are pros and cons.

What I do:
I, for one, tend to mix-and-match. One cool o-ring that doesn't exist in the new design is the Techno-Viper. Has anyone noticed I tend to use mine, and original vintage without any stress cracks) from time to time? I have/am doing modern versions of one, but they don't have the unique look as the vintage one. But I mix-and-match, and I've seen some folks mix-and-match new VAMPs and other modern vehicles and equipment with the o-rings.

[Hammerfel]

There is no "cemented divide". This site was not "forever crushed". You are talking yourself into a mindset that does not reflect reality. Heck, look at this thread. Half the people had no idea this was going on. So Hasbro changed toy construction styles. Big deal. Worse things have happened in the world than that! :)

[vader9900]

I will always be a o-ring collector. I have retired my vintage collection to the display case. I got tired of breaking crotches & thumbs, loosing weapons and risking rusted screws for a photograph. The newer stuff doesn't have the value to me that my vintage stuff does, I like customizing them and could care less if I loose a weapon (I re-arm most of them anyway). From a photographers point of view you can't beat the new stuff, they pose well, no unsightly rivets and the joints are hidden very well. As a collectible, o-ring all the way.

[Scarrviper]

[QUOTE=Hammerfel]There is no "cemented divide". This site was not "forever crushed". You are talking yourself into a mindset that does not reflect reality. Heck, look at this thread. Half the people had no idea this was going on. So Hasbro changed toy construction styles. Big deal. Worse things have happened in the world than that! :)[/QUOTE]

The divide has calmed down a lot but it did exist, especially last year. I just feel that the site's community has lost some of its camaraderie. I'm not being delusional. I've been on this site long enough to witness all kinds of crazy things. I am hopefull that things will get better here in time.

And I will never be a fan of the new construction style :D

[LordRaven]

I did just wanna make a point about the NFO/oWn thing. It was never my intent for that to cause an ACTUAL divde in the site, it was more about us having fun with everyone's different collecting style. Hell, I meant for it just to be a week long event that maybe we did once a year or something. (I even PMed Craig to head up the oWn side of things, but he just wanted to watch the wackiness ensue). If people do feel it was a cause (or furthered the cause) of a schism, I'm really sorry.

Just wanted to throw that out there. :D Just where my head was at the time was a lil FUN rivalry at the time, like shirts versus skins type deal. But I think we can all agree it didn't really work that way. My bad.

[Scarrviper]

[QUOTE=LordRaven]I did just wanna make a point about the NFO/oWn thing. It was never my intent for that to cause an ACTUAL divde in the site, it was more about us having fun with everyone's different collecting style. Hell, I meant for it just to be a week long event that maybe we did once a year or something. (I even PMed Craig to head up the oWn side of things, but he just wanted to watch the wackiness ensue). If people do feel it was a cause (or furthered the cause) of a schism, I'm really sorry.

Just wanted to throw that out there. :D Just where my head was at the time was a lil FUN rivalry at the time, like shirts versus skins type deal. But I think we can all agree it didn't really work that way. My bad.[/QUOTE]


I understand. It began as a lot of fun. Heck, I posted quite few shots for it right when it started. However the constant rule changes killed it quickly. I think several members took the whole thing the wrong way and it did create a lot of friction, even if it was subtle and isolated.

[dancontrino]

[QUOTE=Hammerfel]There is no "cemented divide". This site was not "forever crushed". You are talking yourself into a mindset that does not reflect reality. Heck, look at this thread. Half the people had no idea this was going on. So Hasbro changed toy construction styles. Big deal. Worse things have happened in the world than that! :)[/QUOTE]

Nate, I think Kurt is talking about not being able to see a variety of figures at times when members were overposting( Guilty :eek:...my first day :D ) 25th style figs. The jump to 25th style collectors posting here probably seemed abrupt and overpowering given the way Joe collectors amass armies and then want to photograph them :D I love seeing you back here Hammer, because you are proprietary about your site, but there have been times when moderators weren't having things moved to "collections" when they should be and the effect can be a few pages of shots without diversity and without the style and planning needed to be in "photos", so I can see how the o-ring fans might have felt a little left out. I've always felt that more members would visit the Collections section if you HAD to post that style shot there and subsequently, the more planned shots would look more appealing when you glance at the page. I know collecting goes in phases for Joe lovers so maybe some of the o-ringers out there will start shooting again and vary the content here.

[LordRaven]

In theory it works, but then again, so does communism ;-) hehehe

[Sonneilon]

Sorry I'm piping in on the topic so late in the game.

I'll just say this outright. The MSN crew came about simply from people who use msn msgr. Anyone can join. Some of us wanted to chat in real time as opposed to, I dunno, thru comments and PMs. If we all had yahoo, we'd use that, y'know? I've invited many people but sometimes, they just don't have the right system. Does that constitute a clique because some of us chat on msn? Probably but we're open to anyone. If JD had a chat, we could all chat there, right?


The elitist side of things... I can understand how that can be seen. It's simply when a new comer comes in and see that a group is tightly knit and buddies and etc, one feels like an outsider very quickly. When I came in, Violentfix, General Hawk, LeoTDragon, Luke Ellison and several others were "the old guard". They were the vets and with the way Nate handles this site (no offense, Nate), they laid down the rules. When guys like me, Lord Raven, ToneGuns (the original, not the goodfed up account version), Mobius, Frk525, CodeRedShockwave and many others, we followed the old folks lead. And many of us tried to uphold that. (notice the oft confused Dioramas vs Photos debate? lol)

If I'm considered "Elistist", that's up to you guys. But I give comments and help to anyone; old or new. Elitist to me were the ones who wouldn't give you the time of day. They won't answer your PMs. They won't comment and it's like Prince Adam said (iirc), "they only chill with each other".

Self-righteous as a mod here? I was trying to uphold the rules the best I could. Did my banning of certain people create an uproar? Yes it did. But according to the rules, I did give reprimands (or write-ups) before there was a banning (unless of course, it fell under the "1-way ticket" rules). I was only doing the job that I was asked to do.

The picture cap. Sure, if I weren't mod, it would never happen. That cap was brought forth by me because of many complaints. There were past members who would literally flood the site with upwards of 50 pics at a atime. A lot of the "old guard" left partially because they got tired of their stuff being bumped so quickly. While I posed a posting cap, it was up to the community here to decide how many pictures would make the cap. People had all sorts of ideas and the posse here voted on it. IIRC, it started at 6 then 4 then 3 where it's at now. If someone feels it needs to be changed, feel free to make a post and gather support.

The Flickr vs JD thing. That's... uh... How do I explain it? There are some of us who simply do not believe in posting the same picture on various sites. That's how I saw it at least. Personally, I'm not a flickr guy. And there have been many times where it's like, "Dude, check out this picture so-and-so did on flickr..." Then I'd usually say, "*sigh* Ok..." And then I'd end up seeing the picture on JD and Flickr. I'd rather just see it on the JD. I've noticed that there's a division between the Flickr and JD but I just figured, "to each his own".

The NFO/OWN thing... Did it really turn into funky hatred? Whoa. It was meant to be an exercise of which side could come up with the best pictures. Errrrr, I think that was why. Sure wasn't to make enemies. We just wanted to see some good pictures, in which we did!

People tend to use what is the latest. The Modern Age taking over? Only cuz it was new. But with all things, the old tends to come back. Shoot, I got pics of Razor Troopers that I did as of late (beating up on MA Gung Ho). I even have those DTC Blueshirts in the latest diostory and you'll see them again in the upcoming story. The figures Hasbro makes are tools for me to use. I use what is easiest and best (for me).

uh, what else were we talking about?

[Lava Boss]

[QUOTE=Death_at_Midnight]I have always been curious about this. What is it with the new figure designs that o-ring fans simply don't like?
[/QUOTE]

I'll roll back the clock to 2007-2008

-Scale, scale and scale. There was no need for the "just enough to make me mad" scale change. I'm still not sure why they did it. Was it the 1:18 "let's pretend this is an adult scale-based hobby"? Was it to appease Wal-Mart, was it to look more substantial on the toy aisle? Was so fans would fell they had to buy every character again? Was it just not giving a $#^*?

-Early releases were awkward looking and could not do things a figure from 1983 could do (bend their arms in at a right angle, sit down). Recent figures have gotten better, but there was no reason to be that flawed from day 1. THEY HAD ALREADY MADE THOSE STYLE ELBOW JOINT ON "NEW SCULPT", and they fuctioned well. So why can't Duke pose better? The diaper crotch was inexcusable. Hasbro response was almost like "we never intended to make these a series of playable toys". And ball socket heads that had little to no actual ball joint movement. :confused:

Lesser reasons:

-selling out to the smaller foot peg of modern Star Wars. I like Star Wars, but ^#% Star Wars footpeg size.

-After the spotty era of "new sculpts", I was tired of starting over in a new format. And i didn't even join the Sigma Six bandwagon like some others. I only get 3 3/4" these days, and even then I'm picky.

The lack of the o-ring itself was never a big factor for me, other than concern that there's no real way to tighten loose hip joints and customizing became harder (I really don't customize, anyway.)

I've given "Modern" era a few chances to win me over. Most of the 25th releases I got failed to do so. Some newer stuff I've accquired, marked down ROC figures, has been better made than early 25th releases. I'll still never like the scale change, and hope they go back to true 3 3/4" someday (if only to hear "modern" fans complain...see, what bitterness this hobby creates? ;) )

[Hammerfel]

[QUOTE=LordRaven]I did just wanna make a point about the NFO/oWn thing. It was never my intent for that to cause an ACTUAL divde in the site, it was more about us having fun with everyone's different collecting style. Hell, I meant for it just to be a week long event that maybe we did once a year or something. (I even PMed Craig to head up the oWn side of things, but he just wanted to watch the wackiness ensue). If people do feel it was a cause (or furthered the cause) of a schism, I'm really sorry.

Just wanted to throw that out there. :D Just where my head was at the time was a lil FUN rivalry at the time, like shirts versus skins type deal. But I think we can all agree it didn't really work that way. My bad.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I thought it was fun, too. i thought it would be a way for us to express our love of O-ring or 25th without getting adversarial about it. Kind of like how competing in the Olympics helps Nations from competing on the battlefield. :)

the sad part is, it did make people feel like they had to take sides.

I joined the team of "whichever looks and works best in my dios". The name of the team is JoeDios.com. :)

You are ALL welcome to join my team! :)

[Hammerfel]

[QUOTE=dancontrino]Nate, I think Kurt is talking about not being able to see a variety of figures at times when members were overposting( Guilty :eek:...my first day :D ) 25th style figs. The jump to 25th style collectors posting here probably seemed abrupt and overpowering given the way Joe collectors amass armies and then want to photograph them :D I love seeing you back here Hammer, because you are proprietary about your site, but there have been times when moderators weren't having things moved to "collections" when they should be and the effect can be a few pages of shots without diversity and without the style and planning needed to be in "photos", so I can see how the o-ring fans might have felt a little left out. I've always felt that more members would visit the Collections section if you HAD to post that style shot there and subsequently, the more planned shots would look more appealing when you glance at the page. I know collecting goes in phases for Joe lovers so maybe some of the o-ringers out there will start shooting again and vary the content here.[/QUOTE]
Very well said. I totally agree.

With any new toy line from Hasbro, expect a HUGE influx of new members with varying degrees of talent. :) If there's too much of what you don't like to see, help stem the tide by posting your own! Outrider did that to great effect.

[Mobius_1]

me? old guard? i kinda have to lol at that. (probably was the youngest guy here for a long time) so when people say "old" about me i chuckle a bit. JD was my first real attempt at the whole "internet forum" and i started of taking absolutely horrid shots. but people like Sonne, Ender, and yes, Outrider gave me alot of tips, and it felt good when they'd praise my pictures. JD has always been and always will be the joe sight for me. i may not be that much into the hobby anymore (funds and other things in my life, plus Legos. legos are addictive) but i still buy a figure here and there, as well as playing with them from time to time. only recently have we gotten a new camera, and i still need to get used to it before i go taking pictures.

as for the "cliques" thing, i noticed it slightly, but i couldn't tell who was in what or why it started, so i stayed out. i don't trade, don't collect much, most of my figures are used and abused because i play with them, and things get lost. but the people i meet here are always family to me (and that was some darn good sushi you pointed out to me and the family back in Florida Vader, i'll have to stop there again maybe.)

[General Scarlett]

Wow, what they say is true-if you miss a minute, you miss a lot :eek:

I've been sans home computer for almost 2 weeks now and have just started to head to the library to check my humongo email pile up. Cue another :eek:

I check all the JOE sites and shoot off emails to respond to those who've said, 'Where'd you go?!?'. Then I head over here and I'm barraged with 'hate speak' from (now former) members who have once again percieved me as 'the b*tch'-good thing I'm used to that in the community, so I pay it no mind, sorry to disappoint ;)

Its a real shame that people can't just 'leave it at the door' and look at this site for what it is-a place to share pictures about plastic army men. I was invited here 4 years ago by Ender098 and tepidly stepped in because at that time I was the ONLY girl on site (wait, am I still?) But the 'old guard' or 'elitist' or whatever they're being called, were very compassionate and encouraging. And I returned the favor. Across the entire JOE community I'm known as an unofficial 'Welcome Wagon' because I always make a point of welcoming 'n00bs'. Why? Because I was there once and I know how it feels.
About a year into my membership here, Sonneilon came to me privately and asked me to do him a solid since he was dealing with some heavy personal stuff. I agreed and spoke with both him and Hammerfel extensively about 'how' they wanted things to run, and I complied with their suggestions.

Things were going very smoothly for a long while, until some 'intranet webz' crap inevitably made its way to the site. I attempted to steer the ship as best I could, but I was alone at the wheel-even finding many of the 'Old Guard'-who had once expressed camraderie and friendship-turning their backs on me. Some did reach out, albeit in an extremely private 'I don't want to let anyone know I'm on your side' way, but on a whole, no one stood with me. When things got too out of hand, I was run off the site and talked about behind my back and made fun of for all kinds of stuff.

But still, I didn't let it bother me-hey, I know that not everybody is going to be my best buddy, and I'm cool with that. THIS isn't my life, my life is. This is just a hobby. :D

So I left. And then a whole new set of drama reared up (all that '2 camps' stuff some of you have posted on). But one by one, people here who I never held a grudge against, contacted me and apologized for whatever had happened in the past. And I accepted that apology wholeheartedly.
Sonneilon asked me to come back and start posting pictures again. He (and I suspect others) enjoyed my stuff, so myself and Flint discussed it and said that we'd be happy to share our hobby again with the members of this site and anybody that stopped by. Unfortunately for us, 'real life' is a lot more of a draw than snapping pictures at the moment (something I know that many of you are painfully aware of), so we aren't as able to fill up our gallery as before.
That also meant that we couldn't comment as frequently as we used to. Believe me, that part is aggravating-I used to spend a good hour scrolling through and commenting on people's pics.

As for the rating system, I was opposed to it right from the start when people started getting upset with low ratings. While I was a MOD I tried to get it turned off-to no avail. But now that its gone, I don't miss it honestly. As was said earlier, it wasn't being used properly-it was a way for people to seek acceptance. I next to never used the system, maybe for a couple of Craig's shots or when there was a particularly *bad* shot...and all those were backed up with comments on my reasoning for the rating.

The 'Collection' section I will speak up and take full credit for. I created the section for just the reason its named. But I couldn't find a way to put it in the top bar along with the rest. But I did sticky it as a note and left links to encourage people to post properly in there. And while I still had the ability, I would move photos there when they were placed wrong, along with a PM to explain to the poster about the move.

I've heard that there is a new brand of slander going around about myself and others, and to that I can only say, 'I'll pray for you' because to carry that type of venom against people over toys, well, that's just a sad commentary on a confused, bitter person's soul. But I won't stoop to the level of going 'this for that'. I've got way more important things to do in life. If they feel vindicated by attempting to knock me down, that's their demon to battle-I can't help them with that.

I don't come to this site (or any other JOE site) to delve into petty tit-for-tat sandbox brawls. I come to communicate with others all over the world who are interested in the same hobby I am. If 'G.I. Joe' has taught us anything, its that we are supposed to embrace our teammates and always have their back. Sargent Slaughter said, "We all go home, or nobody goes home." That's the way I feel about anybody I've ever discussed this hobby with, and that's how I'll always feel.

But that's just me, and I'm the only one I'm qualified to speak for. :cool:

[rds13601]

I'm pretty pissed off. I don't want people slandering Scarlett. I also pmed Falcon Chile and he is going to stop posting pictures. When he comes back, if he comes back is undetermined. I also supported FF during his recent banning. I did not expect he would act like a jackass and post people's pictures without their permission. I also did not care for his attacks on Sonneilon. His banning was not racial it was because of a photo that was x rated and not meant for this site. The business between Scarlett and myself is done and finished. If people are using that to hurt her well all I can say is that I don't need people doing that. i can fight my own battles and the war is over so give her some respect! As for Falcon; this site has probably lost one of the best posters of all. Gee , I wonder why?

[giTom]

Wow...

I couldn't even go through all 5 pages of comments. Don't really care. I just like the pictures - the good, the bad and the ugly.

Just another reason to stay out of the forums, I guess!

I'm a relative newbie here on JD and just like the site and certainly plan on sticking around as long as I keep taking Joe pictures.

[Death_at_Midnight]

It's interesting to hear about the Flickr side of things. The first time I experienced cliques was when reading "like i posted on flickr" comments, which I wondered why folks were plugging another picture site. I thought "this is JoeDios! They should be posting Joe stuff in a site about Joe stuff." Nothing about o-rings or whatnot entered my mind. It's a sad tale in the history of Joe sites, I guess.

Concerning MSN, for me using MSN as chat tool was just it. I'm not a very old member of JD, and I certainly don't consider myself an elite. My history on the Net includes sites that offer live chat. Since 1992 I have been active on a MUD, and you can't get more live than that. Thus my handle, Death at Midnight. So using MSN for chat was just natural. Posting comments and waiting for feedback for me is more alien.

The whole concept of cliques doesn't seem accurate, though. It seems members who are older than I here are also at the position that cliques in JD has taken them by surprise too.

Anyway, I agree with Hammerfel.. take pics and be part of the JoeDios team.

[vader9900]

[QUOTE=Mobius_1] (and that was some darn good sushi you pointed out to me and the family back in Florida Vader, i'll have to stop there again maybe.)[/QUOTE]
:D

[ToneGunsRevisited]

[QUOTE=Death_at_Midnight]It's interesting to hear about the Flickr side of things. The first time I experienced cliques was when reading "like i posted on flickr" comments, which I wondered why folks were plugging another picture site. I thought "this is JoeDios! They should be posting Joe stuff in a site about Joe stuff." Nothing about o-rings or whatnot entered my mind. It's a sad tale in the history of Joe sites, I guess.[/QUOTE]
Some people, including me, post on Flickr, but I try to post only pictures that weren't posted here. And the motivation is that we can expand our vision, with other friends that never came here at JD. And I was tired of people that didn't like Chap Mei and Elite Force and kept telling how bad they are in articulation and s one. However I didn't go around saying there were cliques, elitists, groups and such things. I moved that pictures to Flickr where are groups that are only interested in Chap Mei, other about Elite Force, Star Wars and others about PTE... We have free will and post where we want. I'm saving Joe pictures for JoeDios and using flickr to show my hobby about other toy lines for diferent friends. Keep saying there are cliques, elitists and such things don't help. We should all keep posting and comenting and that's it. Bets choice would be close this threat and any other with this intend. Sorry PA, but that's how I see things about this. Last time a drama like this was put out we lost members and not only one.

[Hammerfel]

[QUOTE=ToneGunsRevisited]Some people, including me, post on Flickr, but I try to post only pictures that weren't posted here. And the motivation is that we can expand our vision, with other friends that never came here at JD. And I was tired of people that didn't like Chap Mei and Elite Force and kept telling how bad they are in articulation and s one. However I didn't go around saying there were cliques, elitists, groups and such things. I moved that pictures to Flickr where are groups that are only interested in Chap Mei, other about Elite Force, Star Wars and others about PTE... We have free will and post where we want. I'm saving Joe pictures for JoeDios and using flickr to show my hobby about other toy lines for diferent friends. Keep saying there are cliques, elitists and such things don't help. We should all keep posting and comenting and that's it. Bets choice would be close this threat and any other with this intend. Sorry PA, but that's how I see things about this. Last time a drama like this was put out we lost members and not only one.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I have to agree with this. I saw MSN and Flickr as tools, and O-ring and 25th as toys, not elitist groups I had to "side with". It's a shame some see it that way. Time to close the thread. Framing these tools and toys in such a divisive way is not healthy.